The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Tod Caflisch on The Minnesota Vikings Fan Experience (and Where It’s Headed)

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Tod Caflisch has been in pro sports IT for almost 30 years, so he’s seen the incredible transformation in the fan experience at sports venues.

In college, he used to go to Celtics games, where the crowd was all men smoking cigars and cigarettes. Halftime would come, they’d play the organ, then the basketball game would finish. That was the fan experience of the day.

We’re light years from there today, with mobile integration and high-tech access control everywhere. The presentation of the game itself has changed dramatically, and everybody’s looking to up their game.

Listen in as Tod, Vice President and Chief Technical Officer with the Minnesota Vikings, describes how the team is taking fan experience to a new level. You’ll also hear the number one worst thing you could do when selling to someone like Tod.

Are you concerned about hitting your revenue targets this month, quarter or year? Your answer is value prime solutions, a sales training and marketing optimization company leveraging the value selling framework. visit www dot value prime solutionscom and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience. Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. If you're not able to listen to the entire show today, please visit the website be to be rev execom if find links to this conversation and interview, as well as others we've conducted and content designed to specifically helped to be your targets. Today I'm excited to speak with Todd Kathlish, vice president chief technicalobster for the Minnesota Vikings. I've had the pleasure to know and work with Todd for some time and I think he's one of the most insightful executives I've had the pleasure of working with. His career in the high tech side and professional sports ranges from working with the San Antonio Spurs New Orleans Hornets to try red wings and now the Vikings, were is deeply involved in not only all the technical aspects of run in the French shows, but also the new US banks stadium. For those who haven't had a chance to check it out, highly recommend it, as well as the new multi use facility and headquarters. Two hundred eight years that is broken grounded in process taught us sincerely want to thank you for taking the time to talk to us today and as we're getting ready for this podcast, we decided to focus on fan experience, and so I really kind of was a jumping off point. Love to just get your perspective on kind of the state of the fan experience and where you think it's headed. Well, thanks chat. I appreciate you having me on your podcast. I am a real tech Geek when it comes to sports, so I love talking about it, so I will probably drone on at some point. Just tell me when to stop. But anyways, no fan experience. You know, I've been in pro sports it for almost thirty years and I've seen the transition in fan experience and I can remember when I was at college I used to go to Celtics Basketball Games in Boston with my roommate and, you know, it was all men. They were all smoking cigars and cigarettes. You know, half time would come, they would they would play the organ and then the basketball game would finish. But it is come light year since then, you know, now to the point of all the mobile integration and all the high tech access control and video and and just, you know, the whole whole whole Hoopla and the circus and in the presentation of the game itself. You know, there's a lot of competition...

...for the discretionary dollars that people spend on entertainment. So, you know, everybody is looking to up their game all the time, you know, but fan experience is the key and you know it's not necessarily a case of, you know, just keep doing more. You know, I mean Wi fi has become really, you know, an expected staple, you know, as fan demographics have changed. You know, I mean like I you know, the Celtics example I gave you know a lot of teams, you know, have older demographics, you know as season ticket holders, but those demographics are starting to shift more towards younger generations, a very, very mobile, integrated generations that, you know, expect their phones to work when they go and in the cases of a lot of sporting and entertainment venues you know that haven't sort of kept up with that trend of, you know, having high density distributed antenna systems or Wi fi, fans have flat out total they are just not coming. You know, they're not going to go some place that you know, their phone bricks and their disconnected so mnities, you know, like Wi fire. It's become an amenity, is an expectation and moving forward, mobile is going to even become more of an element of the game experience and just the operations and how people, you know, enjoy the experience, whether it's, you know, watching replay video or it's augmented reality stats, it's, you know, fantasy gaming, it's text to win type of you know gamification and competitions in the venues. So it's really kind of lending in leading that direction. But you know, it also really helps kind of maybe seeing that or seeing down the road with the high mobile integration that you know, it also gives teams huge insight into, you know, how to connect with those fans and especially outside of the venue or the event, so they can, you know, almost have regular touch points with those fans and season ticket holders. So it's a two way street. But everybody sort of latched on onto that, you know, for the most part. One of the things that I really look for that I've seen in a lot of postseason surveys as is making the experience frictionless. Year after year I've seen surveys, you know, everybody complains about the parking and the traffic and things like that. So it's addressing those. I mean they're they're I think, probably most of the you know, the teams that are out there sort of leading the charge on tech integration and fan experience really are looking more at, you know, what they would call the driveway to driveway experience, and it's literally from the time you leave home, leading you through traffic or avoiding traffic, you know, directly into a parking space, you know that's even waiting for you, if...

...you know your systems are sophisticated enough. And then, you know, the mobile device helps guide you right in through a mobile ticket, through the gate entry of the event and then to your seat or to your favorite concession or to help you find a bathroom, that kind of thing. It's the the problems in the challenges that people have that are really the obstacles to fan experience. It's not always necessary the fact that you know they you don't have the right beer or the seats you know aren't close enough to the stage or the court or field or whatever it's, but it's a lot of that. You know. It's the it's the kind of removed the pain in the ass factor thing, you know, and all that kind of stuff. When we were talking in the past and we were up by the US banks did him. It was interesting for me to see how we've kind of you get to some point where digital and cell phones created disconnects right between the fan and the experience. But we've gotten to a point, and we saw this when we were talking to the even the tailgators up there. We're digital kind of creates a new level of table stakes. Like you have to have a certain level of digital interaction the fans expected and if you can provide that then it almost enhances its point where you can connect in a way with the fans that wasn't even possible before. So they've gone from not having any type of connection with with the team to technology getting in the way to now it's evolved enough where they're actually it's enabling kind of immersive, complete experiences. Is that kind of what you're seeing at the at the new stadium? Yeah, yeah, I mean that that's everybody's goal is to, I guess, you know, maybe offer that whole Cornucopia of options. You know, whether they like fantasy sports or they're into replays or they want to instant message. You know, it's a with other fans within the venue, those types of things. He can't really always tell me. You can kind of figure it out by the demographics, but you really the the key on the back end to a lot of that is capturing the data behind the the device use, because you can you really get a great kind of three hundred sixty degree view of the fan, you know, by the you know the type of content that they consume on those devices. I mean there are all kinds of studies and surveys that can link those with different demographics. So you really can kind of get a great picture of who that is. I mean down almost to the individual level, and then Mario, basically do pinpoint target marketing, you know, to those people with stuff that is relevant. You know it's not it's not the days of the shotgun email blast anymore. You know, it's you send Jaguire ads to to, you know, the people in the suite level and you send, you know, the Ford or Chevy adds to the people that might be, you know, in the upper deck kind of stuff. So you know, it's just it provides a much higher degree of success in that type of let's...

...say engagement and which also generates more revenue because, you know, partners and sponsors, you know, are I want to have better engagement and and pay for what they know is going to work. Yeah, it's interesting. It creates a new new facet for all of the sports organizations, which I know you're doing with fir stand, and that is an onslaught of data. So you have you go from not really knowing who the fans are unless they're wearing the shirts right and to the point where you literally have digital profiles, or can have digital profiles, of them. So I'm kind of curious. How have you guys kind of structured or persist your selves to be able to capture, as well as capitalize on that data with partners. Well, I mean it's simple things like, you know, the digital ticketing. So mean we can generate a lot of insight by seeing where fans are entering what time or through beacons and the wayfinding, we can almost, you know, we can see sort of what their path was to the stadium. So that way we we know where maybe it's best to put up booths or sponsor related collateral that, you know, will expose them to that stuff. So there's things like that. And with our systems that like, let's say, do in seek food ordering services or pick up, I mean that that tells us what types of foods people like, you know, so we can better craft menus. I mean, you name it. I mean every time that device is is used, it's generating data that we we can extrapolate a better view of that fan. We can track them, you know, we will know kind of in a lot of ways, where they've been and almost, you know, figure out kind of what their next steps will be, you know, after enough data is collected. Have you ever had any fans? I mean, I don't think this would be the case. But I remember back when people started to realize that their cell phone actually at GPS positioning and they got all freaked out right. They Oh, man, I don't I don't want to, I don't want people knowing where I am. And now fast forward five, six, seven years, people get annoyed if the phone doesn't know where they are. That digital experience there. Have you ever heard any fans push back on giving that type of visibility into their behaviors, or have they welcome to it? I mean, we did some work when I was at the Red Wings with beacons. You know, that required Bluetooth to be enabled, and you know that that we found out. You know what, it had a very limited success, you know, because fans would turn off their bluetooth either because they didn't they didn't want to bother, whether they didn't want to be tracked or or, you know, they didn't want their their batteries to, you know, die well there at that. So I would say not actively. Again, it's kind of like that demographic shift, you know, in season ticket holders to a more sort of mobile integrated kind of demographic that that just you know, kind of understands. I mean that's just kind of part of the table stakes now. You know, it's look at the kind...

...of stuff people put out on on social media. It's, you know, I mean there's no privacy, you know. Yes, so, you know, it's like, you know, I mean, they can't really look at us and say, Hey, what are you doing right? You know, I mean our goal is all about board to to use the data to to increase that, you know, fan experience, make it more frictionless. You know, obviously you know we want to we're going to use that data to generate more revenue, but I think there's there's a balance there that, you know, teams are willing to make and it's just for for the good of everybody. Yeah, and I think it all comes back to, at least from what I've see, the trust that people have the people that are getting you in the organizations are getting the data. They have to go right and trustworthy, as well as how is it being used to provide that frictionless experience, because that is really if you get to a point in digital where digital enables that frictionless then you gets to a point where you can also start the architect physical you know, I talked about this before, especially with that new US by stadium. Some of the physical cool aspects that are designed into that experience are our second to none. I mean that granted. I'm also am a huge vikings fan of the people, not necessarily football team, no fense, but that whole theme that hold of mythos right is is it just swallows you up when you walk into that stadium and I'm curious if you have any plans on how you want to enhance that for the next seasons or lessons that you learn from that first season with the Vikings in that stadium and those types of experiences you guys are kind of planned on for the future, you know, I mean a certainly lessons learned, you know, I mean it was our our first year in the state of first season and I can't say that we made any mistakes, but we certainly seen areas where, you know, there's room for improvement. One of the complaints that we've we have heard is versus the you know, the old metrodome. I mean they are still lines for the bathrooms and lines for concession. Those are the kind of things that were we are definitely looking at and looking at ways to fix. I mean there are systems kind of like wait times out there that you know, will give all the indicators, you know, either on digital signage or even integrated with mobile that will tell you where the shorter lines are, you know, or the where there's no weights for concessions or bathrooms. You know, you just got to be able. You know, we willing to take that information and Muse it. You know, a fans. Fans in a lot of ways are very habit driven. So, you know, I mean they might want to buy the same burger or beer or whatever it is at the concession stand nearest their seat, you know, even if they have to wait. But our goal is to is to get him through the lines because, I mean there's benefits for us as well, because then it's again it's that frictionless environment and you know, also it reduces, you know, attrition, Line Attrition. So revenues go up because people don't don't jump out of line because,...

...you know, something happened out on the field and they want to run and see the replay. You know, they can either catch it on their their phone as a replay or they you know, they're not in line long enough to miss anything like that. So, you know, I would say you know, the line thing is certainly one that, you know, we're looking hard at with the super bowl coming up this year. I mean they're there are some other things that were kind of looking at in conjunction with the League, really around a lot of it's around security and and just logistics of getting to the stadium, you know, because traffic, being the most urban football NFL stadium in the League, traffic is is an issue and because of the the large footprint of the stadium, you know, there's not a lot of parking just directly around the building, so that puts people on foot, that puts people in cars and so accommodating them with specific dropoff points and things for ride yors or, you know, Uber and lift and and those kind of things. You know, and of course nothing really immediate, but you know, looking down the road at at autonomous vehicles, you know, driverless cars, you know, how are we going to address that? And Electric Vehicles and you recharging and there's there's some things there, but I think overall it was a successful first season for us. We are looking at some some upgrades and things, you know, as far as you know, sell charging stations, you know, increasing the number of those we're looking at even some automation in our suits to improve the fan experience there. There's a number of things, you know, but it's offseason or were kicking those around right now. HOW ABOUT THOSE DOORS? If anybody gets a chance, as seriously, if anybody goes to Minneapolis, you have to go see the stadium simply because the doors on the front of it. You never seen anything like in fact, apple maybe the only other place in their new in their new headquarters, a man bigger doors. But how did those work out this year for you? And they were a phenomenal success. You know, I don't know if anybody is really familiar that hasn't seen the stadium or heard, but we have what they call five legacy doors, and I hadn't heard about apples doors, but you know ours. I believe they're in the Guinness Book of World Records. It's the largest glass doors on earth. So that mean the are what, four stories tall, four five? anyways, it's five doors side by side on the eat and the west end zone of the stadium that literally swing out and open, you know, to basically extend our concourse into the great outdoors of Beautiful Minnesota. You know, so during during the preseason and the early part of the season. You know, we can open these doors and it's it's almost it's almost like a carnival effect. It's just big. No, it's open air, and I mean you were there. I mean all...

...the people and they're you know, they're drinking and having a great time and there's there's activities, you know, outside, you know, of the doors. And I mean the cool thing as is beond because of these giant video walls that we have on each, you know, above each end zone. You know, you could literally stand outside of the big legacy doors on the plaza having a beer, enjoying the fresh air, look right through the doors, you know, the whole length of the field and literally watch the game like you're in your living room. So yeah, I mean the doors are amazing. It really is a neat effect when they're open. I mean we unfortunately, you know, can't, can't leave them open all season. But yeah, we talked to some tail gators that so they wanted they wanted to cold back. Yeah, wells, that goes way back, I think. So when you when we were talking about the new training facility, you and our specific talking about how to make that an unraveled experience as well. I know the Vikings, and Kevin in particular, very concern and focus on making sure that that facility serves not only the Vikings but the community as a whole, and I'm kind of curious, you know, what are some of the plans to entice the community involvement in that? Of course there is the give back the part of the community aspect of the bog in a day. It all has to pay for itself at least, and it is a great expansion for the Vikings in terms of diversifying some of their business with some of the plants which going us have their okay. Of Curious and what is the community excited about this and if you heard anything specific about what people are looking for to the most, you know, we have been working, you know, side by side with the city of Egan on a lot of things, you know, just because they're very integrated in in the mixed you development, in our new practice facility just from a city streets and and utilities, you know, kind of thing up to wanting to to you know, and encouraging us, you know, with development of accelerator and incubator programs, you know, and and you know, specially around tech, sports tech and integration of smart city technology as well. You know, we had a demonstration with verizon last week and I had members of the city of eagan there that were very excited about how we're looking to sort of build this community within the community on our two hundred acres, of which, you know, forty acres is, you know, strictly dedicated to the practice facility and and what we need, you know, to run the football operations. But the balance of it literally is, you know, kind of a live, work play environment that's going to include residential areas, commercial restaurant, retail, bars, office build I mean that, you name it. I mean it's going to be, like I said, city within the city where, through things like smart city technology, we want to test different elements of technology around that space, you know, order make it very walkable and very welcoming, you know, to the people...

...that are come there, because we're we're going to also have, you know, as part of the vikings forty acres, a six thousand seat stadium there, primarily for training camp but we're going to also leverage that space for high school football and soccer tournaments and and outdoor concerts and I mean there's been discussion about even outdoor hockey during the wintertime. Plus there are going to be lakes on the property that are going to have, you know this really like picturesque walks and things around them and different development. But we're going to be using the lakes as well. There's going to be facilities for during the wintertime. They'll be a warming hut for people that want to ice skate or play play pond hockey out there and, you know, then during the summer be able to rent paddle boards and Kayaks and things and you know, there's been talk about doing curling events and and all kinds of I mean, you name it, I mean it. You mean it's kind of the skies the limit at this point, but that's what we're trying to do, is with these assets that we have and the way that the that the whole development is designed, is make it a place where people come and have fun and and they're going to want to come back. That is it's really kind of a different sort of outlook on, you know, how how pro sports teams, you know, really kind of operated in the past, or it's been more of a sort of isolated you know, kind of a protected environment, you know, because they they want to concentrate on, you know, becoming champions and in developing their teams or players, you know, so without the distractions of all these other things. Will we're flipping at one hundred and eighty. I mean we want we want people involved, we want them there, because this is the Vikings are Minnesota's team and you know, that's the way that we look at it here and we want to be involved in the community and help it grow because you know, when that happens, you know good things, you know will happen for us as well. It's a massive project. I mean, I've seen the's about a foot and a half of blueprints on your desk. It's almost I mean it's almost the size of stone tablets. It's a massive extures. How do you identify the right partners to work with the Viking's work with you and on realizing this vision? You know, what is it when you choose a partner? What is it that you're looking for and it resonates with you in the King's organization? Well, I mean we've got, you know, some existing partners, like the century links and the verizons out there that you know, have brought technology to the table and they're very good at that. So I mean those were kind of the easy ones. You know, that allowed us to really adapt, you know, what they have and and to other the project where, let's say kind of that that gap analysis takes place and we find out these other areas where maybe, you know, they don't have expertise or a solution. That's where, you know,...

...start to look outward at maybe what what other sports teams are doing, kind of what's going on out there and the even in the tech startup world. You know, see if they know there's opportunities for us to partner with maybe some upandcomers that we can sort of CO promote and partner and help develop their technology and and also drive revenue. So those are the kind of opportunities that I think really help us differentiate from other organizations and kind of how that they know that they run, they operate. But I mean we also have a bigger Palette. The work with the most true, everybody wants to work with the NFL teams. So I think attracting those partners isn't that it's the challenge. I'm curious. You spend a lot of time, like with the essentially central links in the hoverizons or other kind of staple partners. Do you spend a lot of time getting them used to or understanding the vision and you do see them struggling with it? I asked because that concept of experience right, of frictionless experience, for people that don't live it or think about it, it could be a pretty amorphous concept. So I'm curious if it's an easy conversation to have with your partners, one that they buy into. It's a bit of a challenge. No, I you know. I think you know, they they seem pretty receptive, you know. I know do spend a lot of time with them, but I mean they they're sharp. Maybe they they you know, they seem to get it. Obviously there's there's motivators for them, you know, because our development will become a showcase of their products and services and they obviously want to want to do it right. You know, they want us to be speaking highly of them. They want other people to see a great partnership and to see what's going on there. Just kicking ass and take a name, they would literally. So I love working with all of those partners, I mean because it's a really mutually beneficial situation. It's great, it really is good, excellent. All right, so we're coming to the engineer. Got Two final questions that we kind of ask all of our guests. First one is because you do work for an NFL team, your revenue executive, and obviously of people are interested in what is going to resonate with you. Have to approach you. I'm curious if somebody were to approach you, were to attempt to don't want to use the word cell, but let's say connect any way, that you guys found a valuable waiting before what resonates with you the best, what type of approacher or will get your attention. I mean, of being as high profile as we are, and this has been throughout my my career, regardless of the team. I mean it's easy, you know, for Joe Salesman to find out what the desk number is that at the you know the Vikings and call and say hey, let me talk to your guy in charge of technology, and they patch them through and I answer the phone and you know, I get the SPIEL and honestly it really turns me off. And I mean another thing is I'm...

...very easy to find on Linkedin. So you know I get a lot of attention there. But you know, the phone calls really kind of ear take me the most, to be honest with you, because I've listened to pictures and some of them have actually sound pretty compelling. But to get to the point where it's like hey, you know, let me send you some more information, and they say okay, great, give me your email address and I'm like, okay, it's my name at Blah, Blah Blah, and they're okay, so what's your email address? And I'm like, wait a minute, you don't even know my name. I mean that's that's the kind of thing that irritates me the most because as easy as it was to probably find the phone number, it's probably almost as easy to figure out at least what my name is. So I would say do your homework, find out who you're talking to, find out a little bit about those people. Don't just go in there and think that just because they picked up the phone, you know they're going to listen to your pitch. I mean I can't tell you how many times I have that's happened to me. And when it gets to the whole thing about getting, you know, getting getting information and giving the email address that I mean. I've told people, I said, I tell you what, go back, do your homework. There's this thing called Google. Okay, try it, look me up and then call me back. I've had literally one, maybe two people do that my whole career. Wow, yeah, you know me, if they haven't done the homework, and I took a phone because you obviously I'm in sale. So I actually do make a practice of answering the phone because I teach people how to make code calls the right way. If they don't, if they haven't done enough homework to know that who I am, and answer, you know, get my attention out of the game. I just don't have the patience for so. You're much kinder to give them the AF proce. Well, you you say that I haven't given you all the details. I mean I I've had people in, like, you know, the office across the hall, you know, come in after I've hung up the phone and said wow, I can't believe you said that to them, you know, kind of so you know, it's I don't know. You know. Like I said, though, I mean everybody's I'm is valuable. I'm as well and as the next guy to listen, but do your homework. It's that simple. Is it a phone call itself or is it the lack of preparation for the phone call? The it's not the phone call. It gets the lack of prep I mean fact that they don't even know my name. I mean some of them. I mean I even answer the phone. You know, this is todd I mean write it down. They don't even remember that. That kind of stuff. It's just it's really irritating when things like that happen. Yeah, it's just it takes a little professionalism in respect for oneself, in the person you're calling. Well, yeah, yeah, exactly, excellent. Okay, so last question, and we got to think we kind of touch on someone with the you know, do your homework part. But I'm curious, and let's kind of frame it in in Sports Tex specifically, if somebody were selling into sports tech or somebody were marketing or consulting and you had one piece of advice you could give them to make them successfuul in that arena, what would...

...it be? You know, I would say make it relatable. I look at a ton of stuff. I mean I consider myself an innovator and, you know, pretty progressive, you know, Solution Minded Tech Guy, but it's like make it applicable to what I'm doing. You know it. Just don't call me and say you want to sell me a data mining tool. I mean, you know, tell me, tell me how. How is this data mining tool going to help us? and kind of the acid test I use is save money, make money, be more efficient. You know which kind of plays into the first two. So that's what I want to hear, because if I'm going to go and put my reputation and on the line and argue for budgeting for something, those are the same things I'm going to get asked. So again, I maybe it's a little bit more that do your homework, saying think about it. How does your product or service help the Minnesota Vikings, you know a save money, make money, be more efficient? Does it help us be more competitive on the field? Does it make us help us, make us be more competitive out in the business market? Does it improve how we do business internally? Those kind of things. That's what I want to hear, not that I don't want to do any of the thinking, but you know, it's like it just I just don't want to get I don't want to get the impression that I'm just having a canned pitch just spewed all over me. Right, because we we look to partner, you know, we just want to buy your stuff. We want to be partners with the people we do business with. You know, that's that's the best way to do business. Yeah, without do you find it takes a lot? It doesn't take a lot to prep it doesn't take a lot of no, stand the concept right. It's not a huge investment in a person's time. I'm wondering, though, have you found that there is a lack of general business acumen that maybe people should be working to increase? Like you said, save money, make money, increase efficiency? That's a and you that's that's pretty obvious, right. Yeah, I see a lot of sales reps you have a tendency to not think that way. They think, Hey, I've got this cool widget and it's going to do x. Why don't you want it? And that's exactly right. As a matter of fact, I mean I'm have dealt with one of those, you know, earlier today. I have on my linkedin I've got email addresses, you know. So I literally have gotten an email and I'll probably about four or five emails from a salesperson and there's this literally paragraphs long introductory message. I'm going to read all that, come on. I blew it off and literally, probably a week or so later, I got that same message back with another thing. Hey, you know, I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss this, you know, and then there was like a whole paragraph of stuff there. And I've literally gotten different versions of that same kind of thing like two or three times since the original message and I just I just keep deleting them and I'm like, sooner or later they're just going to get...

...it. You know I mean, because, believe me, there's a side of me that wants to say hey, dummy, this is way wrong. You know how you're doing this. I don't know who this works with, but it ain't work in here, you know. So either get concise, tell me what the basic benefits are in a couple of bullet points and how I can contact you if I'm interested, and then let it go now. I mean that's almost like I wonder now you know, how much time, you know, she's spending just trying to chase me down and it's never going to happen. A little bit of research, Getting Kas ice, understanding your audience, you know, and putting the benefit, catching the attention. It doesn't take a lot, you know, it does take a lot, but it does take some time. Versus a we call in sales, we call it show up and throw up, just walk in and just hey, this is the cool shit that I do. It's like that's great, but if it doesn't, if it doesn't apply to the person you're talking to, you not getting anywhere. It's almost a little disrespectful, I mean quite frankly, from my perspective, and that's kind of the way some of those come off because again, it's like, you know, I mentioned before how, you know, sports teams don't even do the full shotgun email, you know, marketing thing anymore because it's really worthless. You know, it's a low, low profile or low percentage shot. It feels like that, and it's like hell, I mean, if we figured that out, you know why. Why haven't you? So you know, really, that's great, excellent. Well, Hey, this has been phenomenal. I really appreciate the time. If I'm going to assume the answers linked in, but if people wanted to follow up with you and touch space. Would the best way to be through Linkedin, or is another avenue that makes sense? No, Linkedin is great. I love linked in. I you know, I post articles and things you know fairly frequently. That's a great tool. I love it. I get a lot of a lot of mentorship, you know, request them things through through Linkedin. I love sharing about my experience with sports industry. But linked in twitter, you know I'm out there as well. You know, at Tcathleish, I mean you know facebook, you know the normal stuff. I mean, okay them. My Kids, kids are teaching me how to use instagram and snap Jack. So excellent, excell well, I really do appreciate the time to this has been great. For those of you that have enjoyed the podcast. Please take a moment to post review and Itunes, share with your friends, family, Co workers. Off US get the word out. We're doing this to try and help provide you guys with perspectives that'll help you become more effective and be your targets. So please share the magic. I don't know states to visit the website, wwfv exactcom. Check out other interviews that we've conducted and todd. Thank you again. Look forward to talking to you soon and until we talk again, best of everything. Thanks chat. Appreciate that it's it's been fun and skull like. Thanks. You've been...

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