The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Tim Matthews on The Challenges of Demand Generation and Goal Setting

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we were able to sit down with Tim Matthews, VP of Marketing for Imperva and syndicated blogger and author of The Professional Marketer, to unravel the mystery of how to effectively align sales and marketing and challenges related to demand generation planning and goal setting.

Are you concerned about hitting yourrevenue targets this month quarter or year? Your answer is value: primesolutions, a sales, training and marketing optimization companyleveraging the valueselling framework visit wwwdot value, Prime Solutionscom,and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast dedicated help in executives traintheir sales and marketing teams to optimize growth, whether you're lookingfor techniques and strategies, ore tools and resources, you come to theright place. Let's accelerate your growth in three to one: welcomeeveryone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience, I'm her. I was ChatSanderson today, We'e, jumping into how o effectively aline sales and marketingmatching demand generation to sales capacity and challenges related todemand, generation planning and goalsetting Salvas an rival the mysteryaround demand generation, we're lucky to have with this Tin Matthews he's VPmarketing for security, software company and Pervo, which is located inRedwod City, California, timis on marketing at Stliconvalisis, thenetskape navigated days for our younger listeners. That was one of the originalWep broundssing he's also a sidicated logger and author of the ProfessionalMarketer Soten. Thank you very wonc. Your taking the time O dan't welcomethe show great to be here excellent. So before we jump in, we like to ask ourguess kind of a question to upload some value up front and it's prettyhopefully provides insight into you as a person in your experience. But whenyou look back over your career, can you tell us about at definding moment toran event the provided inslights? You continue to go back to and leveragetoday UOR The perect change of Directory of Wour Perspective on yourcareer. So I started my career as an se supporting a sales team. Then I becamebriefly a salesperson and I think my epiphany came, and I realized that Iwas what I call the victim of bad marketing. So when you're, when you're out therein the field, especially when you're...

...rushing to a meeting- and you pull out-you know whatever it is the data sheet or I think in this case it was apowerpoint presentation and you see how epically bad it is. You think what am Igoing to do and that's when I realized that you know I could probably do itbetter and- and that was I think, the beginning of my movement towardmarketing sopposed to to working it sales. I understand exactly what we'retalking about. I said thirteen years of marketing and my bar when I moved intosales, was if I can't. If I look at someone and say I could do this betterthan it doesn't. You know it doesn't meat the bar for what I want to put fora customer. That's right! That's right! Excellent! So for listers, let's giveem a little more context around in Perva and your role there right so imPerva, as you said, is a security software company, where a publiccompany about three hundred million dollars in revenue, a thousandemployees and I run global marketing. So I have all aspects of marketing, soproduct marketing field, marketing, demand generation, corporate marketing.You know all the components have a team of about thirty. I think it's thirtytwo people now and my role is as you' expect a head of Marketi. Aut of youknow large company, like ours, awareness, domand generation, enablingthe field that kind of thing a o, all right, and so I were missed. If wedidn't mention in the book, the Professional Marketer, I'm curious,most sales and marketing exet than don't have lot far time to read books.Let them write them kind of curious what the inspiration was for the bookand how did you find time to get it done? Yeah? So sometimes people callthese things. Passion, O Passion, passion, maybe is how I initiallystarted out, maybe staryeied it became honestly. My grind took me about twoyears to write, nights and weekends, but the reason I wrote the book isbecause I couldn't find it. I was trying to find a primmer on marketingbecause having been in marketing for so many years, I would see people who,just though they were marketing, didn't have a broad awareness of all theaspects of marketing. For example, people in Product Marketing had neverdone a marketing budget before people...

...in the Mand generation had no idea, reaa press release or there all these marketing fundamentals. And while thereare great blogs out there today, there's more content than there's everbeen for marketers. There was no handbook that I could handto someone tosay, keep this on your desk and when there's something you don't know, takea look in the book and you' figure how to write a launch plan or a messagingplatform, what whatever it happened to be, and so I couldn't buy the book. SoI decided to write it and took me a long time to get it out. Yeah I'v always amazed people that,when they tackle their first book, they t come back, and I say man that was. Ithought I was GOIN NA- be a little bit easier than that right. But in order to do it right provide thevalue it takes. Ot takes a lot of work so its certain. It certainly does, andthey say, like I read somewhere along the way that books were never finished,theyre abandoned right. That's that's kind of how I felt to the end. I justgot it out the door after two years. You get to the point where I mean it'syour baby right. I mean there's so much of you in it, but I got now if you goback and look at it n, and I wish I written that differently or incrudedthat I know I sort of. If you pick up the book you'll see, I wrote anafterward, essentially giving me immunity from changes market. I knewthings were going to change and I wrote that in the afterward but yeah there'sstuff now that I think h, I just put that in or some a lot of thefundamentals haven't changed, but some of the technologies, many oftechnologies, ave changed and that's that's the area. The book, I think,probably it's going to seem, perhaps the most dated, even after only threeyears, yeah Gosha. So one of the things we talked about as we were prefing forthis was, you know, lining sales and marketing right. This is something thata lot of more clients struggle with ha organizations as a whole. When I wasenon sales team, it was always a nightmare even in software sales.Marketing, for you know very long time, an take that with a granassaut IAS, aconflience, no and I'm curious how youvd dress thisover the years. You know what's Work Bestam and what would you advise peopleto avoid right? So, first of all, because I worked in sales, I havecredibility with sales people and not everyone has that, but from he that'sworked really well, because I, like I...

...said earlier, I know hat it's like tobe yelled at by a client or to show up. You know with poor preparation how hardit is to close that pressure, which you know, I'm actually not built honestlyto be a salesperson, but that's some people thrive on it. So that's number.One second thing is: I would recommend people speak in dollars, not in leads.So, of course, we're going to talk about the funnel in a bit and I willuse the word lead and probably Enq on others, but when you're speaking to asales leader in particular, what they care about is how many dollars are inmy pipe and so that's a really good way to align, because if you speak dollarsto them, you're speaking their language- and it sounds like a really obviousthing, but I always hear marketers or overhere marketes talking tosalespeople and talking about MLS qsls things like that which they understand,but they don't. They don't feel it, but they feel money wrigte that otherdounderstand money, yeah and then the last thing- and I do this on the phoneand friend of mine, recently told me- I should be spending more time actuallygoing to physically visit salespeople Wul keep in touch. I had therecommendation of our CEO here, speak to you all of our regional salesleaders, at least once a quarter of not twice just to check in Askhem how it'sgoing. You know what do they need and I know some has a marketing shy away fromthis, because they're afraid of picking up action items right. I get that, butI think, if you keep in touch on a regular basis, you often get ideas andyou can prioritize the things that come back to you from sale. So that's again,a very obvious thing, which is frequently ignore just pick up thephone and give hem a call and see what see how they're doing yeah it takes alevel of consistency right and awareness yeah. I do it. I do it like.I said at least once a quarter an I make a a point of it just so I knowthat I'm at least you now, no one can ever say I'm not reaching out andtrying to understand how it's going and one more thing I'll add is quite oftenthings are different in different regions, again obvious to say, butcertain programs work in one area and...

...not in another, and you can you findout a lot when you just pick up the phone and talk to a sales leader,excellent excellent. So you also recently wrote about matching salscapacity with dhemand generation. Why that topic? Because I've been bitten by it? That's usually the inspiration for myblog post yeah W D. We had a couple issues and I think I wrote it justafter we had done our annual funnel and we ran into a couple things a maybe Ican touch on the three things that tripped us up. The first thing is yes. The first thingis when we built we were building out our funnel for the year. One of my teamwas using our annual revenue number as the target, and that sounds like itmakes sense, and I just mentioned that you should talk money. So what's wrongwith that. The problem is that you don't use the annual revenue number.When you build your funnel, you use the quota number, because the quota numberis higher than the annual revenue number and if you use the annualrevenue, number you're going to be using a smaller number and giving fewerleads and your sales team needs right. So the first mistake I saw was peoplenot using the quota number which, depending on how conservative your headof sales is, could be ten or twenty percent higher than your annual revenuenumber. So that was the first thing we saw it again sounds obvious to say it,but a lot of people use the revenue number and a lot of CMOS don't get called on that even bytheir executive, so use the quota number number one and by the way, thatcan take a little bit of work to get it sales isn't necessarily you know,flaunting that number you've got TA. You got to find it. You got to ask yourin my case, I had to ask our sales operations team to send me. The quotasecond thing is think of your funnel on a per rep level.So why is this importance? You may find that you're killing it overall youre ahundred and twenty percent of your quota for pipeline added or MQLShowevever. You happened to measure it, but maybe all those leads are in NorthAmerica and your guys in Europe are...

...starving. So what you need to do isfigure out how many leads each rep needs and then track that in the region,so that you're making sure that you're not unevinly, distributing your ledsand especially for a US Software Cup. It's very easy to do really well in theUS, and not do well in you know, brought to Slava or we know wherethat's kind of I shouldn't be flipp about it. You may find that you'rereally weakin France or the UK was your major territories and the last thing-and this this one tripped us up this year, you got to watch out for a suddenupswing in sales capacity. So in our case we had a sale. Seam was doingreally well and like a lot of sales leaders, they decided to add morecapacity to grow sounds like a good idea. It isa good idea. The problem is that if you add sales capacity faster than demandcapacity or dimand generation, what's going to happen, you're going to havemore reps and the same number of leads. That means hat every rap. GOING BACK TOOUR PERREB model gets fewer leads. That's not a good thing, because theneverybody gets pissed off you're, jisting raps get FEWR leads and they'remad, and you knew raps who left maybe a good job somewhere else for the promiseof your Great Company now get fewer leads in theyare used to or expecting,and so the trick is to talk to your sales leaders and honestly. In our case,we had a transition which I think cut our communication lines a little bit,and you know it's my bad, but we are now catching up to be able to fill thefunnel for all those reps, so be very careful about that and try and talk toyour sales leader and anticipate these influxes of new reps or what I wouldprefer to do it wasn under by control. This year is aske the sales eer tophase in the new reps right face them in to hopefully align with your growthin leads. That's Ha namic situation right because not only will will leadsfor rat change, but your quoteunumbers...

...would change, I would think, isbringing on new reps right, the the revenue examt, the sales exactl king towant. You know dollars generated by those kinds, yeah so you've got. Youknow three areas, you know rap tetial planning of it was have to remain alittle bit. You know flexible and dynamic in terms of making sure youryou know, you're keeping them fat yeah. It's so again gain coming back to thetopic of our discussion today. That alignment doesn't just mean that you,like each other and you o you do you're good for the year. You've got to keepin touch as these various things change throughout the year. Excellent,excellent, so demand generation, obviously t e topic, O Passionas as aprobably because it's been togh of mine, but I'm curious when you look at thethe technology landscape right n, the things that have changed. What what arethe recent technologies are trends that you're excited about or ave implementedit improva yeah. We I jokingly say that people like me are y supporting Silicanvalleyes growth by buying so much more tech software, because there's been anexplosion in the last five years. There's some crazy number of MARTECHproducts avail, but thereare two in particular that I'll talk about that. Ithink are pretty cool and I do tend to geek out ond some of thes stuff,because it's pretty pretty neat the first one I've been using for a while.It's called hot jar, so HOTJ AR and hot jar is a great product that allows youto watch the behavior of people on your website. So it has what you expect hasheat maps. It has scroll maps, but it allows you also to see where they'regoing on the site, whath buttons theyre clicking. You can actually record thesessions of people on your site, I'll give an an example. Why that's useful?So we were watching some recordings of visitors from China and you can tellwhat Dhevice they're using and where they're coming from, and these peoplewere all over the page I couldn't figure out their mouse. Little wasmoving left right up down scrolling. I couldn't figure out what they're doingit turns out that they were cutting and pasting the words on the site andpasting them into in a different tab...

...that we couldn't see in the recordingpasting him into Google, translate trying to figure out what the Page saidand they're going back and forth, and back and forth and back and forth, andso the obvious realization. Out of that, was we needed to create a multilingualform because we had so many visitors from China and a few other countries,and so again, if we hadn't had the recording, we probably wouldn't havefigured that one out, and so it's a really need tool. It allows you to dowhat to just mention. You can also put quick little surveys on your page. Didyou find what you wanted? What could we add to the page, and you get back theselittle nuggets of insight that are pretty cool, so that's hot jar andthat's that's a tool you could use forever and ever to keep optimizingyour site, a technology that we're looking into that we probably will havewent this year that just discovered it's called pretargeting advertising.So I think everyone probably knows retargeting. Those are the ads thatfollow you around y after you've, been to a website and you'll see hem on ESPNor CNN wherever you happen to go after you visit some vendor pre targeting ispretty cool, though so, for those who want to do account base marketing. Wehave a target list of accounts that you want to get in front of, but they'venever heard of you or been to your sight these days, there's so muchinformation available. That's been collected in these so called UberCookies that you can give these companies lists of accounts and titlesind those accounts, and they will show ads to those people in a similar waythat retargeting works in the you know in the remnant space on a lot of thesesites, but they'll show him before anyone's ever spoken to them beforethey come into your site. So when you do have a a sales developer, APPERSDRcall them. Hopefully they've got some familiar H. I god, I think I've heardof you guys before I can't figure. I don't know why? That's that's! That's!That's the thinking! So t! THAT'S PRETTY NEAT! That's really! I think theresult of the state of the Internet and the State of advertising that there'sso much data available now to purchase to target these books O we're. I thinke're going TA GIV that try this year...

...and see how that works. Yeah, Hoto, I'mfamiliar with there's also another one: the Glass boxs digital. We had wead theVP marking on the podcast not too long ago out, of course, e o of London, butthat being able to see the way that users are interacting with your sihephenomenal yeah yeah. I spent the last ten years in the digitallisonthesepiings working with companies like Vorizon and e miniter Mikings, helpingthem with their their tutality of experience, not just digital, but alsothe physical and that tool. It's amazing, it's amazing what you canlearn from watching some of those playbacks yeah. We should do it moreoften, I think, were probably just cratching the surface of what we'redoing nexlon. So, okay, so pre targeting sounds. Like I mean that's,that's pretty new. I mean I've heard of it, but I I'll be honest. I Wou D. Ihaven't moved into it yet, but so, let's fast forward and say, if youlooked out Ino the future, you had a cross the ball. WHAT AR SOM the trends?You know you see impacting that dynamic between sales and marketing an thefuture. I think we're going to be able to geet really really good at customertargeting audience targeting with what I just mentioned being the beginning. Ithink that in you know, maybe just a couple years we'll be able to create alist of desired accounts and directly market to those people in a reallyeffective way, and maybe, instead of just knowing things like titl Ang company, you can tie togetheree's a PODEC called Bembora if you've heard of that which keeps track of whatyou've been looking at. So it's so called buyer intent. So you can figureout Al Right. Here's a guy at this company with this title he's beenlooking around to buy this kind of product right and I'm going to give himjust what he wants and maybe that'll be combined with really hypertargetedcontent. So I think that's really cool. If he can it's a lot of work but beingable to really specifically target the right person, the right company, theright time with the right content, I think, is not too far in the future:Excellent Excellenso, let's pip it a little bit here. Talk about in purvose,specifically kind of take a theory: We've been talking about and bring itinto your practicality. So can you help...

...our audience understand? You know howyour sales and working team is currently structured. You know ratio ofmarketers to sales, raps or different kinds of Tis. As we talked about you,kno capacity planning. FROUGHYOUR leads. How do you guys structure those teamsand the and Theyou Nof the workforce to make sure you can support all that sure,so we have sales develoon, raps SDRs. This is on the sales team. They workfor sales. We have a pretty large inside sales team because we have a aproduct that sells well in the mid market, and so they handle themidmarket accounts. And then we have a few hundred field account executivesthat work. You know in country in the field and they handle some of ourlarger accounts. The enterprise accounts. So that's how we'restructured and, roughly speaking, we probably have over TNX the number ofsales people as marketers SOM OU know my team hereis about, I think, isaid.Thirty, two people, I think that's right and we have probably three tofour hundred. If you count up all the reps and the SES tat support them inthe field, allright inoueseration er, you find that to be effective or is itI mean? I know a lot of marketing exacts are always feel like they'rekind of two or three head count behind where they'd like Toea does that? Doesthat feel, like a good ratio and effective for you know for your goals,yeah so to two things? First of all on the salesside we and mostly the sales leaders, butyou know, we've had to do some work as a company figuring out exactly who doeswhat? What's the cut off of the midmarket? What do the enterprise repshandle, who handles certain named accounts? We've had to have? I didn'tmention this, but a small overlay team for one of our product lines to helpthe guys in the field get aut to speed and one of these newer products. So Ithink, for the most part, it's it's. there. We've had some fighting in thefield we've had to deal with over the years and I think we're for the mostpart there and yeah I could use. I have a have a good size team and I think forus you know thirty. Two people feels about right, but there's you know oneor two areas that are light and we're...

...just starting to think about planningfor next year and I've had my team start thinking about list of what theyneed and I've asked them to put them into three categories. One is urgentburning need. Lack of this person is causing a Dran on the whole team andbringing the team down. So those are the people going o hire first. Thesecond is growth, so people we can hire that we can say if we had this personWe'd be able to do something that would really grow thing. So another person atdemand, team or the Channel Team, whatever it might be- and the third isyou know nice to have which people? I don't don't like the name of thatcategory, but I think that having that discipline instructioring, your hiresreally forces an honest conversation. Not like you know. Everyone comes inwith one to two hires for their team and before you know between my eightdirect reports, we have sixteen people right, which we've been a mor ad,almost fifty percent to the team, which is not going to happen so h, t that'show we're structuring the hiring. I think we've a ball parking it. I thinkwe've got one to two urgent burning need people and one to two growthopportunities for next year is my best guess: Okay and right now, man, a Yoguys fobby started planning for next year. But what? What is your topbusiness issue? Wer Strategic Business ubjective that you're focused on, Ithink right now it is making sure every rip can sell all ofour products. So I will get to this in a bit, but you know I was acquired intoImperva and that brought in a new product line and what we're seeing isreps that have been here for a long time. Aren't selling this newer product,which is reducing our overall effectis as a company in the field, so makingsure that the demand is there but equally importantly, the enablement forour people and for our channel partners, so that we've got people who are fullyarmed to go out and sell our full portfolio E. I think we're leaving alot of money in the table, and I mean...

...that literally because I think thereare accounts of ours out there that aren't talking to us about productsthat they maybe speakig now competitore about. So that's my that's my numberone because, as everyone here probably knows, it's much easier to sell to anexisting customer than a net new customer asa right and yet we're doing that well in someareas, but not across the board across the world. Okay and other specificproblems in terms of you, K, ow getting all of the sales people together to getthem up to speed on the total product, Portfulli or other problems that maybeoure internal Littar, keeping you from Resolvein that issue. It's acombination of things. First of all, old habits die hard, rep sitting yourquota with the older products and the newer products you know require them to change the way they dothings quite frankly, and not everyone wants to do that. We've had to makesome adjustments to the quota plan, so people get you know, credit for in thiscase of suscription products- and you know, that's part of our problem too,is generally speaking perpetually license software products cost moremoney, so the reps get more quoteer relief. However, for the business amultiear subscription can be more profitable in the long run, sobalancing the corporate goals of deferred revenue from subscription andthe reps gualls of bigger numbers to retire. My quota faster. That tensionis, I think, the biggest issue we've got so showing the reps. how to do bigsubscription deals, enabling them training them, showing them having a few years of history now, topoint back to to say, look at this account. Look at that account. Look howbig that was initially look, how much it's grown over the years by going backinto that account and upselling. So that's really the issue. It's behavior,it's having examples. Even if YEU had a training session, the reps would alwaysbelieve it. If they didn't see a giant deal ad, I'm going to pick up randoncompany, Barklays Bank- or you know universal music, Croup or hat whateverand to say look. These are big deals.

You can do it too yeas those rops- andI O- I probably followd to this camegoroo to those wreps- areinherently skeptical. They get comfortable with what they're doingthey think it's working and shaking them or educating them. Revolving thembecomes a bit of a challenge right without a doubt. So you mentioned thaacquisition. You were in Cassula and in pervect acquired them. I'm curious, Ffrom an acquisition stampoint, you know: you're eading, capsula you've got yourmarketing engine running. You feeling good about it. The acquisition happensnow. Youve got more products. WOR More people dynamics change a little bit,I'm kind of curious. How that acquisition affected. You know maybethe way you were approatin marketing or did it didn't inspire you? You knowthese opportunity to implement new changes or no approaches. So the way itworked was we were left to Ron autonymously for a couple years afterthe acquisition. I think that was a very smart move by our CEO. I'veactually been part of a few different acquisitions, and I've noticed thismore modern trend where they let the group that they acquire keep runningand keep growing and not really wanting to mess it up right by corporatizing itso to speak. So that was a very smart decision and that work really well forus, and then I didn't Menton this earlier, but I actually moved from youknow running marketing for that product line to taking over all of marketinglast year. So I moved into this this roles, headof marketing, for the wholecompany. When I came into the company. What I was most excited about was allof these account executives out in the field hundred guys and women around theglobe who were, in speaking to some of the largest accounts in the world andbeing able to enable them to sell the suscription product, and we talkedabout the challenges there and, despite not all the reps, doing it right away.We had really smart, talented sales rips who could who could walk us into?You know filling your favorite large bank March CPG insurance company. Whathave you so that's? What excited me was having to go to market reach that wedidn't have as a small organization? Ax?...

Okay. So let's Change Direstio a littlebit here towards the end of HV. We ask all of Er against two standardquestions right. The first one is as as a RP marketing for a ISIUSIBLEorizition. That makes you just to put it bluckly a target for a lot of. Yes,we on right, YEP, and so I'm curious from your perspective. You know a lotof people as there talking about prospecting. You vebeen talking aboutcommand Gen. What is it that gets your attention or captures? You know your eyes so thatyou would be willing to engage with someone who wanted to approach Ouo tosaw some ofyour problems. So I get between ten and twenty emails a day andone to three voice. Mails a day from SDRs of Sales Pol trying to sell mesome marketing technology or a list or trade show would have you and I have tosay this is one of my pet peeves. I wrote a blog post a little while backcalled the top dumbest emails. I've gotten this year, because some of them arereally stupid and I don't care if your CEOS in town this week. You know, Idon't even know o you are wel. Why would I want to meet them right? Justas an example one? Then I get quite a bit so but te Anser, you question theones I do reply to typically their emails. I generally don't answer mydesk phone, because the people that know me have my mobile number right. Sogive me something of value, something specific, a bench mark, a study,something my competition is up to those are the ones that get my attentionbecause you're bringing me value, and it's not that hard to do if you'reselling, some great marketing technology, you probably got a relevantcase study or maybe you've done a study or something that's the kind of stuffthat I typically at least I'll. Read it right. You know if it's really goodI'll, probably get back to you, Ison, okay, so last question: We call it ouracceleration insihe. There was one thing that you culd tell salesmarketing professional serces people want piece of advice that you would beknown for that you believe, would help...

...them hit their targets. Ror beat theirnumbers. What would it be and why walk in the shoes of your customer? So we did an exercise. My previouscompany and I'm going to do here, which is called be the buyer day, so dropeverything and pretend layyou're a buyer trying to buy your piece ofsoftware or whatever it is that you sell and the way we do this is wedivide up into teams and each team is assigned to a vender, so your owncompany is one vendor and two or three of Yhur compators at the other vendorsand act like you're, a client researching your product so go to thewebsite. Gor The blog fill out the form to download the e book. Call the salesnumber all those kinds of things. It's amazing. What you'll find you'll findtypically how broken things are in your own company, Ohan and speak to. You Obe honest about if you have fromt but speak to one of your, if you can sdrsor inside sales people on the phone. Are you amazing what you find? What youhear? It's really it's really eyeopening you'll find that if you're,better or worse than your competition you'll find areas from mprovementyou'll find ideas, you can steal from competitors, but being the buyer acting.I think we forget about it all too often, even though it's our job againgoing back to the really obvious things. But if you just act like a buyer,you'll find so many things you can improve and make that experience somuch better for your customers. That's really going to help you marketing!That's a great twist! An you know, hear a lot of marketing and SS. I go talkabout byer journeys ar buying for Someng. I like this a lot betterbecause you're actually experiencing you o just trying to map it out, butyou'e actually gelocking in their shoes, N and you're right. It's amazing whatyou will find out about yourself and your competitors wheher HEU, Gon Trog-that, although I think sometimes the honesty of Cortuat like owning but crap, we could have done this better,that, depending on hwho found it. If that was a person who put out thatpiece of content or that Wepsite, that...

...might be a little bit challenging, butthat yeahll of integrity is, I think, is important. I like to run my teamwith the mindset of we can all improve, and if we find something that somebodydid, you know to point fingers. Everyone knows who did it, but we alsogive out awards to make it kind of fun, but look look even some of the stuffive that I know I can do better. So if you have that mindset that we're nothere to embarrass people, although we've heard some really bad things fromsoarec people, they need the they need to get better trained. But I think, ifyou go into it, that mindset knowing that you're going to find stuff, it'sokay, excellent Excellenta. This has been great. So I really appreciate ifsomebody wanted me to copy of the professional marker, the marketer bestplace to pick it up best place is Amazon. Okay, just go to Amazon andtype Ino. The professional marketer or Tim Matthews and you'll find it allright. We'll put a link to that in the shownods for everybody and if alisteners interested in talking more about the topics we touxhed on today,what's the best way to get in contact with you, you can read all of myramblings on my blog matthews with two tes matthews onMarketingcom, and you can find me on Linkedin and twitter is at Tim,Matthews ASSV. As in Silicon Valley, you can find me there too, all righ Ni.I can't think you enough of the time today's been great having you on theshow. Yeah, it's been fun. Thank you all right, everyone that does it forthis episode. Please check us out of BTB rebiceccom Shor, the episode withfriends, Familys poworkers and I'm not shameless toff to Sayk, please rehusthrough ve on itumes or wou have an idea for a guest someone. We like asainervew pes, Sou fom my direction. Til next time we value Promi Lusios,wish you all nothen, with your greatest Stuss you've been listening to the btobrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show, an itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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