The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 3 years ago

Three Qualities of the Most Successful SDRs with Jeremey Donovan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

One of the top challenges executives cite when asked what’s getting in the way of them hitting their growth goals is finding and feeding the top of the funnel.

But how do we do effective prospecting in a manner that is repeatable, scalable, and personalized?

Listen in as Jeremey Donovan, SVP of Sales Strategy at SalesLoft, shares the three attributes that the best SDRs possess as well as how to overcome some of the biggest prospecting challenges in your business.



You're listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies, were tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the BDB revenue executive experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. So today it's going to be all about effective prospecting. Toping me and dude to my heart, one many individual rep struggle with. Doesn't matter if you're an str or BEDR and account exact. Anybody that has revenue responsibility has to find and feed the top of the funnel. One of the top challenges sales executive site when it has what's getting in the way of them hitting their growth goals. But how do we do it effectively in a manner that allows for repeatability, scalability and the all important personalization? Today we're going to tackle this with Jeremy Donovan, has fe of sales strategy at sales off. Jeremy, thank you for taking time to be on the show. Yeah, trave is my pleasure. Thanks for having me. So we always like to start with kind of one oddball question just to give the audience a better understanding of you is an individual, and this this cycle I've kind of changed it to if you know, a lot of people will know you from work or or your thought leadership and things like that. I'm kind of curious, as they're a passion or something that you do outside of work that those that do know you only in a work setting might be surprised to learn about. I have a lot of hobbies. The People at work do you know that I'm a animal lover, so they've already got that down. I think the people. The thing that people would be most surprised to learn about me is that I learned how to weave Navajo style rugs on a vertical loom years ago. So that's my wow, Eric Hobby. That's pretty esoteric I have. That's not one I've heard before. Most people have not know and it was a very random and I learned it by watching this is I guess it was pretty well. There might have been some stuff on Youtube, but I got a DVD and I and I learned by watching the DVD and it was it just a random thing. They call your attention or I gotta no more. Yeah, it was. It was not a hundred percent random, but mostly ran. It was I was moving into a new place and needed floor coverings. When shopping and realized on my God rugs are expensive and I thought, okay, maybe I can create them on my own, and I didn't, certainly did not manage to cover all my floors. It's extremely time consuming, even though we've a pretty small rug but but that was the genesis of it. It's a very I've been engineering background originally before I moved into marketing and sales, and it's a very kind of rhythmic thing. That's quite I mean it's not. It's you muse a graph paper to basically do it. So there's there's a bit of that mathematical thing and there, but it's also a very relaxing, hypnotic sort of thing to do as well finding the inters in I love it is actually is as meditative. Yeah, Meditative, I understand that. Excellent. All right. So how about just for those that aren't familiar with you or sales off, how about it just kind of little background on sales off in new role there. Yeah, so high level is, without sounding to marketing speed. We're in the sales engagement space, which basically means when sales people want to engage, often prospects, but it could be existing customers to try to win the right to spend time with them via that, they're going to engage MVA, phone and email, social media, maybe direct mail, what have you. So they're going to engage those folks. And the old days people would keep track of how many touches you did over what channel, in on a piece of paper and a notebook or maybe in spreadsheet. But we are at a class of companies where we allow you to basically load those workflows into a system and then it just, it just automatically reminds you to do those things. That's what we do. AUTOMAGIC as one of my more favorite, more favorite, if that's good, but it's one of my favorite favorite expressions. I mean, technology is a huge enabler, right, and that's three sure getting more and more complex today, especially with all the channels that sales people...

...have at their disposal. Even marketing people have their's folds of the capture tention earned that right. So tracking is definitely a challenge for people. So when we when we think about that engagement spot right and we know, we all know. Whether sales people want to admit it or not, every knows they're supposed to be relentlessly prospecting down the number of them who actually do it's probably another podcast in another debate, but we all know that we need to be doing it. And so I'm curious when you talk to clients or or you know, you have the opportunity to work with some some upandcoming brands and big names in the space that have be tob sales teams, what do you see is the biggest challenges that they're having? Yeah, so, I mean, I guess I was. I was cut from the cloth or what. Had the advantage of working for a bunch of people who used to work for management consulting firms, although I never did, and they taught me that most things right. A strategy is people processing technology. So I mean interestingly, even though my company sells a technology solution, just because these technology solutions are so ubiquitous. Right, if you look at any of those those great logo graphic things that have hundreds of sales and marketing technologies all crunched together with all the logos on there, the Mare tech five thousand. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean I think there's there's an embarrassment of riches on technology. So I rarely think that people have a technology problem because they just have such great access to it. I think they often have people in process problems and that's really what I see. So on the on the process side, I think it really is the lack of well defined processes all through the funnel, right from the top of the funnel all the way through right and we could go obviously part of that. And then the people side. I think one of the Big Epiphanies I've had is prittically in sales development. I mean I have I've done every configuration of comp structure, of structure of cadence design, like every combination imaginable and when it comes down to is simply activity. It's a really hard thing for me to say because, as you know, I know what I was in my s I wouldn't have wanted to be managed this way, but it really comes down to are you hitting them of an activity level at the end of at the end of every day, day after day? That that, I think, is actually the biggest challenge people have and filling their funnel well and there's a I mean, and that gets into a great kind of point, and I know everybody who's listened to this before and knows I provide the questions and then I go way off script. So so when you think about it, the technology, I really like that perspective. It's not a technology problem because, I mean, they called the more Mark Tech Five thousand. I think there's what sixty seven hundred plus companies in that random seems like it's growing every day as long. In fact, there were two founded in the time that you have been talking. And so I mean the the technology is there and I think a lot of companies have a tendency to sit back and think, okay, well, I have this tech solution, so that's going to solve my problems, when in actuality you can't have a single kind of a single line of attack. When you're trying to enable sales individuals, you have to have the tech but also the ways to an incent the behaviors and the definition of what those behaviors are in the process to support it and measure it, and I think there's a lot that struggle with that and it sounds like you're seeing the same thing. Yeah, I agree and I think one of the biggest mistakes that people make, I mean sales professionals, marketing professionals make, especially leaders make, is that they they think that if they buy the technology they will solve the problem. And that is very much the least of it, right, and I think that gets at how you think about it, gets it something that it is near and dear to my heart, which is how do you differentiate on how the competitive market? Sure this would be way off script, but if I can go there for a second please, as I reflect on my own career, right I worked originally for a semiconductor company. We had an arch rival. I worked for Gartner for a very long time. We had, you know, forester and others as arch rivals, and then I worked for a couple of other companies and we it was always at least one arch rival and it was always I was always thinking about, you know, if only the arch rival didn't exist,...

...but it's never that easy. I read a really good book recently called sales differentiation. I don't know if you talked to the author. I think his name is Les Al's S Alz, and he talks about four levels of differentiation and the first level is on features and functionality. Right, that you're wrapping my rapper, both going to say, or sorry, you're wrapping the competitors rapper. Both going to say we have the best features and functionality, but it's it's largely the same your rap. Then the next level is on customer success implementation. Right, the raps are going to make those same claims. Sure. The next level is on Oroi and references. And you know they're both going to have the same Roi calculator or they're both going to have great references. And it's that fourth level of differentiation that really matters, and this will tie it back to the whole people process of technology thing, which is the fourth level is is that you are able to prove during the sales process that you're the right person to help them solve their hopefully immediate and then mid term business problems. And that's a show, don't tell sort of thing. But as it pertains to technology, right, if I'm a company that sells US ass solution, a technology solution, a big part of the proof is to actually spend the time to understand what their processes are and give them actionable advice on how they can optimize those processes or take the time to understand what their kind of people considerations are, comp structures, organizational structure and so on, and take the time during the pre cell process to optimize those things. And it's if you do those if you do those things, you're creating real value that differentiates you from a competitor. And it's such a subtle shift. Right. We spend a lot of time with our with our clients just on that. I know sauls I haven't talked to him specifically about the book, but those four areas, I think from from my perspective, thing that I would kind of tweak is the best differentiation I've seen is when the sales up in the sales process, to your point, actually has the ability to uncover what it is that the buyer is looking for from the buyers perspective and then connect to those. Then it takes asking more questions and, to your point, the show don't tell or ask. Don't tell them right like here's, here's. You know, let me ask the questions on what your perspective, when your problem is, no matter how many years you spend the text base, no matter how many times you've heard the same story and everybody tells you it's unique. It's still Disney, right, we all know how it's going to end. So let's take the time to really understand that buyers perspective and I think, especially in the mare tex space today, that level of competition. Man, if you only had one nemesis, that'd be great. I mean your computer. Think against it. You know, thousands of people just for mind share as well as budget, and I think it gets a little bit challenging. Yeah, I'm with you at it. I was reflecting, you know, we, when you have what our tribal you feel so frustrated by them and them, I'm sure, by you. I have been at least at one company in my career where there was, yeah, it was basically, you know, five hundred or thousand or more whatever, competitors. It was effectively competing in a commodity space, and that's that is the real challenge for how do you break through at that particular world? Yeah, and I love it when, Whenever's Oh, we're commoditize, I'm like, you guys are not that. You're not selling paper cups. Like you want to talk commodity. Paper Cups is commoditized. Yeah, it's like we still have the ability to have some pretty important business conversations with the technology that you guys are bringing to market. So it's always interesting to me and the technology. I've become a huge tech freak. I love the cadence tools that are out there. I'm very familiar with sales long as well as some of the competitors, and to me it's a look you guys are given. You're given the keys of the Kingdom. All you have to do is turn them on. Just turn it on, and that requires you to actually take action. Yep, and consistently get better at using what those things are bringing to you. And with the stats today, last ones I saw was with fifteen to seventeen touches across twenty two to twenty four business days to increase the probability of connecting or having a conversation. I mean that's depending on how what kind of scale you're doing. You need tools to manage that. Nobody's going to remember all ladder stay on top of it. It's impossible. Yeah, I mean I think beyond even two or three touches right. That's why, before these...

...tools existed, people would just do you know, they make a phone call, they said, an email that make a phone call and that was basically it. They didn't answer. They're not interesting. Yeah, and then even with the tools, by the way, I mean people, people find reasons to give up, right, I mean they it's not that common that people will really execute through, you know, all their cadences all the way before before they see a squirrel and start running after it in some other direction. Right. And well, it's I mean then there's the added complexity of you know, if it was just phone and email, that's only two channels, but you've got six, seven, eight channels you can use today, the Chi the next challenge becomes how do you think it's kind of spatially in order to strategically choreograph those cadences so you're providing the right things at the right times in the right way? That takes it to a whole nother level of complexity, as well as challenges for managers and leaders to track. Yeah, right, and that is a big piece. Right, is the analytics to understand what you're actually doing and what's and what's effective. Right, you know this. It ties a lot to personalization, which is we're constantly doing tons and tons of data science looking at, you know, at least millions, if not hundreds of millions of interactions between prospects to figure out what works. And, you know, on the personalization side, love this logical transition to that. But we found that if and when sort of obvious, I guess. But if and when you personalize your your engagement, you have dramatically higher probability that someone's gonna, you know, reply at that. You'll generate an opportunity, without a doubt, without it. I mean I can use myself as an example. I mean I I won't name them on the PODCAST, but there's one company that has been bombarding me with emails because I made the mistake download in the white favor and and we're at email as of this morning. We're email thirty one and it's from the same young lady and it's got the same thing in the subject line, or at least a telltale in the subject line. So I know who it's coming from. I can tell it's automated. I know there has been no personalization and the first line is always hey, you didn't respond to my last email. No, I no correction. I didn't respond your last hundred emails. Yeah, because they were all horrible. The subject line at all or it's all re re, recreate. It's well, they'll change. There's one the name of the company shows up in the subject line and it's always in the subject line. They may change some don't read the subject line anymore. I once I see the company name, I just delete it. And you got something super important, right, which is the concept of the pattern interrupt. Right, right, is that variety is important and we see that variety thing in all at all kinds of areas. Right, and the pattern interrupt is definitely present. It's most commonly people think of the pattern interrupt for phone calls, right, right, which is like like are you having a good day, versus are you having about? You know, like right, just switching things around and something that that's not expected, or hey, how you doing? Like, don't tell say that anymore. Right, right. So cares. Yeah, so there was one. Actually, I'm a big Fan of the research that Chris or lab does over love, Gong love. The guys are going, yeah, yeah, I Chris spoke at our conference recently. I came up to him and he's probably twenty years younger than me. And I was bowing down to him because I thought I literally I just because I thought I'd be fine. I literally bad that because I think it's stuff is so good. But he put out some researchs that said, rather than saying how are you doing, you say how have you been, which is which is a pattern interrupt right, because you don't expect that. The when somebody calls you, basically called a cold engagement, right, cold call. Right, you don't expect that. But and yet it has been proven in all those gone call recordings to have worked. So it's the pattern interrupting. Yeah, you see that in the calls. You see that in emails, and I think not just the emails but also the spacing of the emails. Like if that, if that person was emailing you whatever every other day and then always including their company name in the subject line, then you're just going to get numb to it, as you describe. But if one of the things that we've seen is you basically want...

...to spread out your touches, right. So when we design cadences, we put touch you know we'll do we usually do pairs of touches. We do double time. We call it double taps or double touches. So we'll do two on day one, two on day three, two on day six. You know, we're like adding a day each time, right, so that adding the day makes it makes a bit more unexpected. Sidebar, by the way, is that having your own company name in an email subject line does have a much, much higher reply rate. So that's a really good best practice, but not if you do it every single time. Interesting, I see. And now look, I can tell you, I mean I can tell you to do the whole, to the whole, like capture my attention. You know, earn the right. The definitely haven't earned the right. Well, I'll tell you what. I know who that company is, and I'll be honest. I've gone and looked because, I mean, we teach you know, you guys, you guys to handle the technology side of the prospecting. We handle and work with the human side. So we teach them how to do this. It's part of what we do. So of course, anybody who sends me crappy email like that, they become a prospect. So so I've gone and look at the website to see if it's somebody I want to try and do business with. But I have not engaged and they here's the crappy thing. They have something that I could use and I know it's something that I can use, but simply because I'm in the space, I'm probably not your average bear, like I'm annoyed that you're sending me crap, like, come on, like are in the right, earn the right to have my time. I'm extremely busy. Then if you keep doing it like this, you know it's not going to work. But to your point, I do know the name of the company and that I can't say that for everybody who emails me. Yeah, I guess it helps that their prospect for you as well, and you filled you know, you filled something out on that note. By the way, we routinely go and hit people's request to demo page and then we benchmark, because it's like part of that thing I was talking about different eating your software in the sales process, right. We then benchmark how, basically, what their cadence looks like on the on the back at? How long did it take them to respond? When they do respond, is it personalized? There's it not personalize? When do they make phone calls? They do social touches, right, so we we secret shopper them if I've turned a noun into a verb or well, no, I love it, and that we deliver back to them like a hopefully insightful set of recommendations based on where a benchmarks, as well as recommendations on how they can optimize their their inbount response. Nice. I mean it's something that people I have a think I've seen it too many times. They said and forget, and I think that, okay, I design this cadence and I put in maybe a few cycles to actually think through it, to try and get strategic on how I effectively can, you know, connect all of these touch points in a way that's going to provide value. The individual is going to earn that right. And then they think they're done and it's like you look, you got a test, you got it, you got a test, you got a tweak it is a process and a journey. Prospecting is not a set and forget. People just you know, they get used to one channel. You got to go after from a different channel and you got to get creative and you've got to make it about them. It can't really just be about you. I totally yeah, I totally agree, and things that work that things are working now right, stop working? Sure, so, I mean it was. There was a time where putting the person's first name in the subject line was super effective, and now we found that that actually decreases response rates by about twelve percent. So, but there was a time where it boost it tremendously. So right these things, as you said. I mean you got to constantly be creative, you got to constantly be maybe testing. We're sorry to here, and it cut rears it's had every couple years. That return our direct mail right, right, a hand written note to somebody or sending them send them something creative. And are dimensional. Direct mail not a flat envelope. It's something you can I think the post office has has an obligation to deliver anything. So it's someone told me about sending a coconut through the mail. She's like with an address on it. So you got to get creative. Yeah, I mean, and that's really what it is. It's an opportunity. You know, I've met some, you know, strs or even even sales people that take their prospecting seriously,...

...and the ones that I see be the most successful. have two things. And tell me, and add to this please, or go for it, that guy. But one of them is is an insatiable creativity and curiosity. And maybe those are two things, but the two seats creativity and curiosity. They've genuinely want to find people that have problems that can help. They're curious about the problems to those people have right and they're not afraid to do the work. They're not afraid. They understand that that they have to earn the right. They not lip service, like they genuinely get that. They they have to earn the right and they have to demonstrate, you know, demonstrate that they have something that is worth the other individuals time. And without that I see a lot of struggle. I mean it's unfortunate some organization, see St Ours is kind of the burning churn part of the organization, which is unfortunate. Should be the feeder free your it is the yeah, that don't all a lot of the ROI is in the feeder part. But yeah, I'm with you. And and it's like why, why aren't we doing more to stoke that? I mean you guys have tools like yours, tools like sales off provide the perfect support for our platform, let's say, for that type of curiosity and that effort, that grid, that grime, to do it, to do it consistently, to learn from it, to stay on top of it and know that look what's working now. Like to your point about direct mail, I can attest for me. Right now direct males got the highest response rate in any of our cadences. It takes more time because you do have to be creative, but the you get back to the quantity versus quality aspect of it and I'm curious if there's traits or behaviors you've seen in sto and I know they can kind of be two different animals, but SDRs are account executive kind of traits or behaviors you've seen that make them more effective at the prospect in game? Yeah, it's it's no fun when two people just agree with each other all the time. I guess I can. I can agree with you and add add to it. So I think the I totally agree on the curiosity piece and at I'll say why, and I think it's yes, it is about and being able to engage prospects effectively, to listen in an authentic way and and understand what they're true needs are without trying to ramp something down their throat. I think there's another reason curiosity is so important that, particularly for STRs, which is it is the hardest, most soul sucking probably job on the planet, and sales at least, but maybe in other ways. Because right, I mean you're calling, you know, you're calling five thousand and sixty, seventy times a day. You're sending email after email for email. You're going all over linkedin like your you got a hustle and then maybe did people just hang up on you or send you dasty grams and maybe projection. You know, if you get one meeting, that that's your quota, and if you get to in a day, that's like great. You know the this the sky opens up in the sunbeams come through, so so like it's such a hard job and I but I think the Curia, and I've noticed this in the strs that I've worked with over over the years, that the ones that make it are curious. Right, they go in every day saying, Hey, you know what I'm going to try, you know, instead of is this a good time to call? I'm going to try it is a bad time to call, like I'm just going to test something every day, and that that they get fulfillment from from that learning experience, from that curiosity about how humans react to two different approaches. Sure, so I'm with you on that. The other one, I mean it's probably embedded in the grit thing that you talked about, because I think grit is is perseverance and combined with passion. Oh that, and that's better than grant. It's kind of little school, but I mean I think that's the definition of Grit. Like the academics when they talk about Grit, they decompose it into into perseverance and passion for long term goals. I I read too much academic literature, by the way. So No, it's great. But I think the other thing you yeah, is it's probably on the persistent side that this is big epiphany. I think I talk to you about earlier right which I had, which is like you can make all these changes,...

...but the thing that matters is activity. We started off with that. Yep, it takes like you got to have the perseverance to grind. You know which basically is it is that right, and those strs who do that are the other most successful. We we just had a person who he was a fat. We have a really awesome way that we handle promotions, which is as soon as people source a certain number of opportunities, they are eligible for promotion and because we're growing so fast, that means they basically get promoted no matter what. So this person is like most people hit that in eighteen months. That's the average. This person hit it and I think between eleven and twelve months and he was the fastest ever to hit it and and, you know, very happily promoted and celebrated, and I would say that this guy just like as great coming out of his ears. Yeah, for sure. Well, and I think that's a great way. I mean from an incentive, like the challenge, with the human aspect of it, especially because the str job can at times be so soul sucking. I think setting a goal, like you people hating people struggle. You've probably seen these two at a goal, for if you said as many opportunities, here is the outcome. I think that helps for some of the generational challenges that there are in management now. But it's a really clear path and that's I think it's a beautiful and elegant way to address that. So he got here's the goal. You can get there if you want to do it faster. Look, it's possible. You just got to put in the work and then, I think helps and still some of that, but there are there are a lot more, unfortunately, that wash out, that just gets a point where they're like, I can't do this anymore and don't come back. I was talking with our HR team about that today. It just about how miserable it is that if you don't succeed as an str and the organization you're at, we basically have two options. You're going to go somewhere else and you're going to have to be an SDR again and you got to have to put in your all eighteen months all over again, or you change jobs completely out of sales right. So I mean I think people who lead SDR teams really have an obligation to lead their strs and help them build, build habits that make them successful, because otherwise they really is a you know, it's the good news. The economy is amazing. They can just walk out in the street and get another job. But made the bad news. They got to that it's not going to be as if the reset. It's a raman it almost like. I mean I've, you know, I've done both over the course of my career. I'm you know, I did joke. I remember when phones had chords and people actually use papers. I remember one when when you had to have a rotary on their phone. All, yeah, yeah, I mean we have one of those in the basement. I love that. I love it and I'm honestly I missed it. There's been able to recreate that on my iphone yet. Like I would love to have it APP that actually had. I'm sure I once heard a speaker, I think it was I want to say it was this Guy Kevin Kenneball. He was really good. I'm pretty sure it was him, and he he had like a regular phone you could plug into your iphone. I've seen that that I traveled so much at to pay them about to carry I'd after assume, though. So. But when you look at people like if you think about account rests, like when I was in the back, when I was in a bulgial contributor and when I was running teams, I would see all the time people that had been in the sales game, not even a St ours. This is probably before we were actually calling them St ours or be ours, people that would come in it. Account exists. It was a look, it was a reset. I don't care what your Rolodex was like. It's a reset. You should expect somewhere between six, nine twelve months before we start, depending on how complex, when enterprise sale it is, before you start to generate revenue, and even some of the account exacts that had been doing it for a while would struggle with that first, because that's where you see the grid, that's where you see. Are you going to start doing back to basics in order to fill the top of the funnel? To see an str walk out and have eighteen months to do it again, Oh man, I feel for him. I feel for him. If you find the right organization today, stick with it, do the work. The payoffs there. Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I also have always, because I'm so data driven, I'll sort of trust advice, but only so far. Got Instinct, I guess, but only so far. So I recently pulled everyone who had ever worked as an str at sales force and there were, I think,...

...sixteen hundred of them, and then I pulled whether or not I'm my measure of success was whether they got promoted from str to aeat sales force right, because I think that's a you can there's lots of different measures of success, but that seemed like a reasonable one sure, and that, I they why I did induce myself. I had up work outsource, to up work to basically collect all the biographical data on those people and then tried to figure out what, what, if anything, is predictive of success for an str and to the point of what we've just been talking about. Interestingly, people who were SDRs, who came into sales force as SDRs, had a much lower success probability than people who, you know, were not. And among the people who were actually the best at the str job was very much this reset concept. It was people who were they were as before, but maybe they were selling something that was a little bit more transactional or something that was a bit of a lower price point or less marquis compared to sales force. And those were the most successful people. Right that they had built, you know, they sort of seen the other side and built some of those skills. But the but they, you know, they came in, you know, quite surprisingly, as SDRs at sales force, reset a bit and then off to the races after that. Harest thing so well, I mean I think that would probably go to kind of, as I'm running it through my head, like an understanding of the macro, like, let's understand the macro and everything that takes to get from first contact through, you know, clothes or implementation, value realization, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, so I understand that. I understand the field I'm on. I may not have been able to master it. I wasn't doing it with very large I wasn't in the NFL, let's say, you know. But now I get the oportunity to go back and really focus on special teams and build my game. We it's a more complete understanding of the totality what's required for success. That's a extremely powerful concept. How many? Sixteen? You said sixteen, hundred and hundred. Yeah, wow, they've had a lot of strs over the years. Yeah, there's. It's it's so funny, right, there's. There's certain brands that when we go and work with customers, whether they're in Martek or even some actually bleeding out of Mortech, now that you your very similar names. Right, very similar brands. No, I was there, I worked there. Yeah, and it seems like everybody and every engagement I do there's at least two or three from, you know, kind of the big F in the text base. Yeah, I've I've been New York and and right now people are all passing through some combination of Linkedin. We work good. But yeah, there's a certain there's certain brands around here where where Yelp is another one where that yelped has just hired tremendous numbers of strs over time. We see them go through Oracle sales force. Those are the ones that has shown up the last two months I've been on the road the most, like every time we're training an STR team. No, no, I came from Oracle and this is how he did. Okay, well, where you successful and where I right? All right, no, okay, so how about we just, you know, maybe give it a shot, like, let's just try something a little different see if it's gotta be successful. Totally, totally agree. Oh, by the way, what issue? We danced around the feel, if you want to come back to it. It was this whole concept of the you know, the value that strs and or a he's tap into. When when their first engaging? Right, like at what point? And it was the reason, the reason. I think it's sort of what we danced around. It is is challenger versus consultative selling. Right. That's like one of the classic Oh yeah, now now you're in my backyard. I just read some research, but I love to hear what your opinion is. I'll tell you what the research said. Go for it. I'd love to her. Sure, sure, so it was. It was. I read last night it was CSO insights had surveyed five hundred, trying to pull us out of my memory banks, five hundred be tobe buyers and ask them, ask the buyers, when do you want to basically have the business value conversation? And they were effectively all the because I guess they...

...compete with Challenger. They were it was they were. It was kind of cryptic, but they were basically asking do you want consultative selling or do you want challenge or selling? And it was split right down the middle, which I thought was interesting for me personally, when I buy, I buy a lot of stuff, and when I buy I really dislike challenge or selling. Like I know what my problem is, and I probably you know, you might have been at you might have come in, I might have. I probably came in inbound, but let's say you happen to email me right while I was thinking about the problem. Then I'm going to reply and ask for a demo. But I still know I have that problem. I can't think of ever buying where someone came to me and said, hey, you don't realize you have this problem. You really need to buy this and it's going to make you x x amount of dollars. Yeah, there's man, there's a couple of things there. I got. I'd just gotta, I gotta go into so. So I give you my perspective. So, so we do, I mean we are. You know, we do the value selling framework and it's I know, I get it. Everybody is AH, well, I've done vice like now. You're talking little V little less. I'm talking true value selling framework as a whole. Ip around it. It's more on the consultative side of the equation. However, it has built in the ability to provide insight without friction, and so if you look at some of the data that we've seen, I think it's something like less than ten percent of be tob sales executives are capable of actually pulling off a challenger like sale without risking rapport and so trust and reporting people buy from people that move them away from problems and towards solutions. Right, at the end of the day, it's a trust game. So one of the people that have been several people have been through my class, through our classes, will tell us that, you know, some of the things you guys say sound very familiar because you know challenger phrases it like this, or or solution selling phrases like this. But the difference is we would never suggest you risk rapport right, repervort incredibility. So with challenger, I believe it insight, but I believe that becomes that comes down to enabling the sales up to have a true framework. And I'm what we can go on a whole different tangent on whether or not a blue challengers actually a framework, but if they have a framework within which to operate, it's I thousand, by the way, I'd agree it is not a framework. Teach Taylor and take controls out of framework right, right, right when you get to the take control part, and I mean come on like there are there's some personalities that can pull it off right. There are some that could sit in a room with svp or hire of global one thousand company and be able to challenge the thinking that's across the table. However, when there are six thousand seven hundred and some odd Martech companies and you're walking in and the CEO or whoever you're talking to doesn't know you from Adam Yep, to go in and go straight for the throat with that type of insight selling, I think it can be dangerous. Now, not to upset anybody who's listening who loves challenger, WE WORK WITH A lot of companies that have invested in Challenger and the insight portion of it is critical, but that's more about how do I effectively educate myself on the person's perspective that I am getting ready to engage with so that I can provide them insight in a way that will be valuable to them and not risk the credibility. Not really the rapport then. So in the whole sales and ableming space, and I think it probably said this on the podcast for so I don't care if I say it again, we call it sales rd right, so it sales rip off and duplicate. Okay, so every framework is out there. You're going to hear a lot of the same things. The thing that I the reason that I over my career from an individual contributor when I was a marketing to individual contributing sales to run and teams. The reason I kept coming back to value selling and now I'm doing the value selling, the vortex prospecting stuff, is because it isn't about what to do as about how do I do it? How do I understand the person that's sitting across the table for me? How...

...do I prepare? How do I craft the questions? Don't tell me I need to craft the questions. We all know we need to craft them, but how do I do it in a repeatable, scalable way that allows these reps to be authentic? Yeah, I was just you just had the word I would had in my mind, which is how you do it authentically. Absolutely right, and you need a framework that's going to allow the individual to shine through, and I think that becomes even more critical today with with all of the investments we've seen in CX. You know all of the design like hey, we design this apps. So was easy and know you design the APP. So I would spend more time in it and spend more money and believe that I felt good because I was being loyal. Like I get it, because I sold that for ten years. Like I know, sure, I know what that is, but at the end of the day, those x expectations change what me to be buyers want. They want to be collaborated with and, funny enough, the if you were actually, how long were you a Gardner? Oh, sixteen years, so then you been through our course. Oh Yeah, yeah, Julie Thomas used to walk the halls. Yeah, okay, okay, so I am pretty tight qualified prospect formula very, very well. Yeah, okay, all right. It's because that, when you said that, I'm like, I don't know if I should jump on that or not. Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, you know what we're talking about. It's the authenticity part of that comes down to the implementation. But for me, when I work with organizations, it's like look, guys, we don't want you to be rubber, we don't want you to be cookie cutters of each other. We want consistent sales motion. To Go back to Chris or law right, all his research shows that the thing that sets the organization is a part is consistent sales motion. It's not about the number of people, it's not about a players verse it's just consistency. So here's a framework to do it that is actually tuned into the way an individual actually buys rather than the way you sell, and here's the way that you can bring you into it. And I think empowering people that way allows them to then more effectively, to bring it home, to more effectively prospect and reach out and understand. Value isn't what we think it is. It's probably more likely in the mind of the buyer. And when you don't cover and connect to that, yeah, it is. You need to uncovered. And by the way, I meant to the point of like challenging consultative. It's not an or. I think it's an end, but I think it's a sequence thing right into your point. Like it's really, really hard to challenge and build rapport. So I think you build rapport with the many things, but but including the consultative selling to meet them where they are. And then once you've done that, then, right, you can. You can. It's almost like an upsell during the sales process, right, like then you can find ways to to increase the value that you can provide them that maybe they didn't realize that they could. I don't know. I wanted to use like a some other example outside of sales or Martech. But like someone might not have realized that they if they had like these extra features or whatever, these extra benefits, then they could get so much more out of it. They would actually get more Roy. So yeah, I've I'm totally with you. Or if we like, let's say in the world of sales training, right, like they may not realize that, hey, we can also train your cspeople and that's just as important, if not more important. That made out of it the problem they came in with, and that might be the challenger part, but you'r earn that right after you've tackled their sales training piece. Yeah, and that's exactly what we see happening all the time. Is If you call us and you know sales exactly, call us today, my sales reft don know how to close or whatever, you know, whatever the challenge may be, and then once we get in, they realize what we're talking about. We're talking about the foundation of being able to consistently connect to another individuals perception of value and you uns them through whatever process you need to move them through. So I have clients where we're training their data scientists where we're training their development leads, you know, and it's just about how do I have a conversation and consistently and effectively listen, capture their perspective take the appropriate actions to ensure it's a mutually beneficial outcome. Yeah, and that, by the way, skill, I think. I mean you talked about process a bunch of times. I steal a little something from, you know, from every methodology and every every approach and and the thing that I find most valuable in value selling qp formula is the plan part of it. Oh Yeah, and I've seen this as a buyer and I've seen this as a seller. Right that I'll take the buying side. A few years ago...

I was buying in sense of compensation management software. There's a few vendors in that space and like one of the vendors, from the very inception of the sales cycle, once the album, you know, qualified OPP was generated, they put in front of me here's are mutually agreed upon plan and it had dates and timelines and who's going to do what and what order. And, you know, like they it was a dynamic living document that kept being updated. But that Rep knew how to sell right and she knew what the steps should be and some people would argue like that degree of rigor might be too much. Right. That's the way they talk themselves out of it as like what if the prospects is just rated by it? I don't need to do all that and maybe you can get a maybe, maybe, how a lotn't even know if I agree with this and get away with that in a super small organization, but in a larger organization where you need like faithful scalability, like, yeah, you do have to cookie cutter things a little bit and you know that if you skip, I don't know, the executive introduction right between the peers at your organization and their organization, whatever the step is, that if you skip that step, the probability you're going to close a deal drops dramatically. Oh Yeah, you introduced risk. You introduced risk at every turn, im and I just literally had that same conversation with the client last week with a actually an account exact that was in my club. All they're ready to buy, yeah, but you're not. Like if it was just between the two of you, okay, maybe, but guess what, you have an implementation team, you have a customer success team. They have a security on it. Like you. It's not one to one buying anymore, especially in enterprise. There's always multi people involved. Implementation is always a challenge. The easiest man that plan letter has made me, and I tell people in class, if you remember only one thing that comes out of my mouth, remember the plan letter. Yeah, that will. Any one makes even more money. It's maybe more money than anything else. Yeah, no one does. Is, by the way, so different. I mean it's so differentiating if you have that. So even if your copy doesn't do it like you should do it as a day. Yeah, and we teach. It's funny because we teach so on the vortex side. When we do that, we teach the SDRs, like here's how you start it, here's how you use that framework to do all the things that we've just been talking about. How do I provide in sight, capture value, like all of those things. How do you use the value prompt? But then how do you present it in different, I don't want to say trasts, but let's say different life cycles of that plan letter? So then you have the organization has a consistent perspective of that prospect from first contact, first conversation all the way through implementation and beyond, and we see that that drive the type of consistent behavior that, I think, is the challenge. I mean, you guys have amazing tech. The cadence management tools that are out there are are, if people take the time to step into them, are great and a great benefit for those that are in organizations that have those, are about to have those, and many of our customers are actually in the process of rolling out some of your tools or or other tools like that. So we see it a lot. If the star step into it and then also understand they bring their own baggage and behavior to it, they can make a huge impact on the organization. Yeah, well, the other I mean, we can full circle of trust, right, which is your strs are the are the first impression that you give people of your of your it's really your holistic customer experience, right that that, whether people are consciously or subconsciously thinking about it, every interaction that they have with you during the pre cell process they extrapolate to what it's going to be like as a customer. Right. And if you make it easy and if you make it valuable and if you show that you're authentic and listening. Right. You build trust during that pre cell process. That makes them believe, and they're hopefully the right way, that you're going to deliver on that later on. So, yeah, we think we definitely brought it full circle. All right, cool. So let's pivot here and change the directional of the just to be respectful of your time, I'm at which I really appreciate. We ask all of our guests two standard questions the end of each interview, and this is actually doubly important for you since the business that you're in. But we ask everybody. If somebody doesn't have a referral into you, they don't have a reputation, don't know who they are. What have you found for yourself to be the most effective way for individuals,...

...whether it be St Ours or count executive, is, to reach out to you, capture your attention and earn the right to have a conversation? Yeah, it simply personalized engagement. Right. So if somebody reaches out to me via you know, I'm a big linked in person, so people are welcome to connect with man linkedin or an email. What is could be one of those two things. I don't even have a phone. I actually use so so if they reach out to me one of those two ways, you know, just make it personalized. And I've got such a kind of big footprint out there that, like, I can understand it when somebody, just just as you described earlier, sends me something that is generic. Right, absolutely all right. So perfect. If you were able to give people one piece of advice, whether it be s to ours or suns executives concerted, one piece of advice that you, if you believe, if they were to step into and utilize, would actually help them achiever crush your goals, what would it be? And why? Hold yourself accountable to daily activity targets. I love it. You know, it's like the sad it's the simplest, saddest thing, but you know how many people actually make sure that they make fifty, sixty, seventy dials a day? Like, who does that, even when you're working an opportunity, right, because you don't want your pipeline to grow and shrink. So yeah, hold your don't wait for your manager to do it. Right, hold yourself accountable every single day to some some target. Absolutely perfect, Jimmy. Of the listeners interested, it sounds like linkedin an email that's way to get hold of you. Linkedin definitely is the best way. I'm all over Linkedin, so that that's connect with me, reach out to me, whatever, whatever you want. All right, extent, I can't thank you again for the time to day. It has been amazing that. That's been a blast. I love talking the folks who have seeped in the steep to the same books and travels that I've been in. So it's been fun, excellent. All right, everybody that does of this episode, check us out of Baby Rev exactcom. Share the episode with friends, Family Co workers. If you like what you here, do his favorite. Leave us a review on itunes. And until next time, we have value selling associates. With you all nothing but the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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