The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 3 years ago

Sean Campbell on Virtual Selling

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

More and more organizations are implementing virtual selling as they reevaluate their travel budgets, cost of sales and changing desires of buyers.

Sean Campbell, CEO of Cascade Insights, a B2B market research firm specifically focused on technology companies, sat down with us to discuss what virtual selling is and why it’s becoming increasingly common in sales.

Were listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast, dedigated ele executives train theirsales and marketing teams to optimize growth, whether you're looking fortechniques and strategies for tools and resources, you come to the right place.Let's accelerate your growth in tree to one: Welcome everyone to the B TobRevenue Executive Experience on your host Chad Sanderson today we're talkingabout virtual selling, a hot topic many are discussing and debating hisorganizations continue to reevaluate travel budget cost of sales, changingdesire of buyers who wants to be face to face who doesn't to help us. Withthis topic we have Sean Campbell so of cascade insight to be to b marketresearch firm, specifically focused on technology company San. Thank you verymuch for taking time to be on the show today. Now, thanks for having me on so before,we jump in, we like to start with kind of an odd question, give our audience a little bit moreinsight into you as an individual. And so, if you look back over your career,can you select or find a defining moment that maybe change the trajectoryof your career or gave you some insights and share that with theaudience and tell us kind of what that event was and what you learned from it? Yeah that's pretty easy, and I imaginethat's probably the same thing's going to be true for anybody else who starteda business. It's starting a business. You know it's selling selling is hard,no matter where you're in whether you're selling for somebody else'sbusiness or it's for your own, but, like I told somebody on a differentshow the other day. I said you know the thing you should never give away whenyou're growing from like one to ten employees is selling, and so many timesa new person who starts to business. The first thing they want to give awayis telling, if they're one of these guys that's kind of a doer who likesdoing the job ot the business, and I like doing the job of my business too,but you have to hold on to that for a while. So, for me it was starting abusiness first. One I started was in two thousand. I grew and sold that Pisistarted cascade in two thousand and six and the story from that standpoint was about two years into that business. Wehad been doing. You know our own selling. Personally, it was me and twoother business partners and we had good relationships with the clients that wehad and things like that, but we decided that we wanted to grow ourrelationship with microsoftad for about a sixto nine month window we tried somecontract sales resource and it just didn't work and that's not to say thatthey don't work always. But in this case it was clear to me that thisindividual just really did not know how to sell off no matter how much theytried and they didn't really even want to learn Microsoft to the degree theyneeded to, and this is when Microsoft was cool. I somewhat cool again somewhat cool, Imight add, but there was a point where they were cool. They were like theGoogle of two thousand and two, and no one believes me when I sayd that butlike if you went there, r one thousand nine hundred nd ninety nine S, my firsttrip there to do any kind of work for him. They looked kind of like a google ifyou transported them back, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine, you know, and so at the end of the day, thereason I bring up the story is: I looked at this individual who was doingthe selling. I looked at my business partners and I said I think I couldsell Microsoft. My Business Parners, listen O me, I I looked at them. My Dadhad been in sales for his whole life. I thought I had some of the GENOM. Youknow, and I thought I coal do this. I had no idea what I was getting myselfinto in the some degree right I mean this is enterprise account selling on amassive scale, and so we did really good at it. I mean good enough to grow.The first business eventually have enough revenue init to sell it, butthere was a ton of stuff I learned, and that was definitely kind of a definingmoment- just kind of stepping up and volunteering to take out microsot,because there are a lot of people out there that when you ask them, you knowHowd, you get into sales. I very rarely hear well when I was young playing withmy fire trucks. I told myself I wanted to be an enterprise hales. There alwaysseems to be a securitis reinto it right. So there are those that find it. Youknow quite fascinating, like I'm like myself, I started my career and on thedark side Wat. It depends on your perspective, but I started in marketingand went into sales because I liked the problem solving aspects of it. But Iwas not that kid. You know play with he fire trucks and who I can't wait to doenterprise sales right. So it's always. It's always interesting to hear howpeople you know kind of make their ways into that and hat and the insights thatthey gain as they do that. So, let's talk a little bit about cascadeinsights, help us understand a little bit more about them and your role there yeah so cascade insight is a firm thatdoes markthet research and competitive intelligence services for technology companies Bhut only be to befocused technology companies. I tell folks all the time we have a verynarrow front door. I sometimes refer to it as he kitty door at that small thatessentially that you can fit in and if you can fit through that door and weregularly turn down stuff, it's one of the more surprising things aboutprofessional services- and I hate to...

...say this, but I think anybody listeingknows it's true- that a lot of professional services, especially ifthey're kind of high and consulting they kind of, do whatever walks in thedoor right. Regardless of what the website says, and we really mean it. Weturn down the other stuff that knocks on the door. Our clients work indifferent industries, but our clients are only be to be focused technologycompanies and so for them. We do. You Know Market Research Services andcompetitive and telwork my roles in the CO and I'm an equal cofounder conerwith a guy named Scott Swager, whe's, the CPO and president and basically day.Today I focus on motivating and educating. I think you know, I don'tknow what it's like to be co of. Even a hundred person company I mean, in termsof we have clients that are pretty large, but you know I've never been aco of a Baier company than O Thusan, a twenty five people and at the end ofthe day I think that's what a lot of cos find themselves doing. You knowoutside of all the other stuff that they focus on number ORENDA, etc. It'sa lot of motivating and educating and from a day to day standpoint, I managea relationship with key accounts. I lead sales and our marketing effortsand I oversee a lot of the operational stuff like financean legal and that'sthat's kind of the day today and weeks week. So so I've got to ask Ou know itwasn't on the list. He questions I provided, but it just kind of done. Ome, I did professional services for over a decade and one of the thingsthat I saw a lot of firm struggle with was that focus right, so you guys are.If you look at the website and just to listen to you talk, you guys are veryfocused on a very specific set of customers, and even it nounds liketurning down business that doesn't fit into that. How did you I'm just curiousfor my own education? How did you come to that realization that that was? Youknow the secrets? Tha You success, moving forward that level of focus? Well, it's interesting. It was a littlebit of an up and down thing. The first business was so hyperfocused on aparticular client need that a lot of our business came from Microsoft, anIntel and we had a smattering of other work, and we all know that when youopen up a small business, if you look at their pnl they'll say like yeah, wehave key account and then you realize they have two key accounts that arelike sixty percent of the revenuet right. That's real typical for smallbusinesses right and so, and and if you, if you don't believe that you'relistening just open up quickbooks for most small businesses when they'restarting and they dyfically have like a couple F, major accounts, and soregardless of what the owneris telling it right and so, at the end of the day,we were very focused in the first business and we're like we're. Neverdoing that again. That was way too stressful to be like so hypper focusedon a couple accounts, and so we got really broad when westarted cascade in the very very bigintin first year or two, and Itraveled the world literally like when all these kinds of different places, wehad accounts in different industries and we realized what was happening. Is We were just going to be commoditizedbecause at the end of the day, right, unless you have some incredible, almostpatennable way of doing what you're doing in Serviceis Mie like this, thisincredibly just boxed in way of doing it and you've written seven books on itor whatever. It's really hard to diffrentiate. If you, if you're, goingto hit every industry right, because eventually the client start to sniffout the idea that you're not really focused, you just followit a buck, andso we looked at and said, look let's go back to what we know we're awesome at.We are awesome at dealing with large technology companyes and down to themidmarket, and we really get teck and we really get Beata B and and let's see how much we can grow.If we just put a mote around that and say we're never leaving that castle andagain, you know we have a client, that's in life sciences, but that's a Bto be fast play. That's in life sciences right the line I draw is likesure our client might be in life sciences, but we're not going to gowork for mark and ask them what Dr Stick Right, because that's a pure justsitting over in Farma kind of thing and it creates some problems. To be honest,I mean you know: Are we going to be three hundred people with this focus?No, it's probably too narrow, but I don'twant to be three hundred people. I don't have plans for world dominationand I think, as long as you know who you are, then it has a lot of benefitswhen you're in competitive scenarios, because, frankly, somebody's looking at you and threeother guys and the other three guys say they work in all industries and BahBlah Blah Blah right and we've all seen how that pitch goes right. E, like Ihave lots of experience across lots of industries and hence I can generalize.I work for a gold mine before I worked for you and we go in and we say: We'veonly worked with your competitors and you or people like you that aren't evenyour competitor ow. You know which proposalis going to flow to the top andif you do your homework on all the rest of it you're in a much better positionto win, and so for us, that's been a really good, strong thing in the finalthing. Is You just get smarter about the space and that's that's a lot offun because overtime, you just learn a lot. More about a certain set ofproblems, but- and it's I mean it's great to see- you know you guys doingthat and doing it with purpose, because I like said, I saw a lot of servicescompanies that struggled. You know with that. You knowcommodizization because Thof like Oh, no, no, we do it all well N, all right,not really...

...not as good as you think you are at it.So I I appreciate that inside, but we're here today to talk about virtualselling, so it is definitely a hot topic. It's I was just having drinkswith another coworker and it came up last week, but what I'd like to do isstart with an Keve, our audience, a definition or context around the phrase.What do you mean when we, when we say virtual selling yeah, I would say the shortestdefinition- is how to get a PO without being there s a longer definition, butthat's the shorter definition, the longer definitions, probably more likethis. You know running a sales process where you can take many months to do it.You'V got phone calls proposal, presentations and even the contractingprocess, and all of that- or at least ninety five percent of that- and we cantalk about that like the times when it needs to be ninety five percent versusa hundred percent is done virtually and that's to me is virtual selling werethe whole thing from the moment they said Hi and you said hi to the moment.You have a po and potentially even all the delivery of the workout, but isjust done virtualiy and it'. So that', it's an interestingkind of change. I've been not not to give away my hads, but I mean Iremember, Microsoofto, one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine and I'vebeen doing this for a while. I remember when I first started in sales. It wasall about getting front of your customers face to face and and so nowyou'R hearing about everybody talking about how there's a change right people,don't necessarily it seems more like it's w you're, really interrupting themor taking away too much time. If you show up face, faceyou have to be verystrategic about when to do that. So you know we kind of mentioned when itshould be ninety five versus a hundred hundred percent. How do youdifferentiate? You know? Okay, we've done ninety five percent. This woneneeds an inface like where's, your wheresyour line for that. Well, there's actually two things tosay about what you commented under one you're right back in the day, it was almost impossible to get a Po unlessyou showed up. If not once every time right, I mean you sold anenterprise account. You basically were talking about thous nine hneed ine,nine, two thousand an two two thousand and five something like that. But youlived at the hotel next to campus bacently, I mean they knew your name.They knew your preferences, they knew everything, and that was the only wayto really navigate that account. It was the only way to Gev referrals. It wasthe only way to get Mindsharan meeting and it was the only way to really get aPo and POS would even get stuck until you showed up it'd, be like yeah, we'llreward it to you. You know, but we need a meeting with you. First Right andwhat I've noticed is you could almost grash in my own career.I don't have this graph, otherwise a chair, but I know I know itod be true.The size of the Po that I can generate without evere showing up just getslargerrger and larger every year, and that's not like an ego thing. I don'tmean, like you know, hey, I can build big Big Pos, it's more just it's the change, inbieur behavior. Theyaccept you not being there and the time where that extra five percent comes in is really almost dependent a little biton the client, but I think the risk in it is if you're used to traveling- andI went through this actually maybe five six years ago, where I realized, I wastraveling the clients. You probably didn't, really need to see me to openthe PO, and I had one wire myself right, I'm like there's less people in thislobby than there was five years ago and it's even harder to show up as a vendorthan it was five years ago. You know my wife has a line. I use all the time bythe way, because she's been involved in the business over the years doing like accounting and finance andpayrolen. She always says well. Well, you know Shaon you're, never going tosee a welcome vendor sign in the lobby right and she wa she's right about that.But but but there's less people in that lobby than there was in years past andI had to kind of recognize. I was even holding under an old school Mestat. NowI'm talking about like twenty ten, two thousand and nine whatever and I neededto change, but there's certainly still sometimes wher that one flight, but I'm onlytalking about one flight, not like living on the hotel next to campusright kind of moves, the deal out of the pocket, it's it and I almostguarantee the person on the other side of the table a little bit to age here,because I'm forty seven is about my age yor older. Now I don't believe injudging entirely based on age, but I do believe in paying attention to what Isee right, and I know that if I'm selling to a younger buyer, theyabsolutely don't want me to show up in the building and they're happy to kindof. Let me do it. You know the difference between selling to a thirtyyear old, VP marketing an a sixty year old, VP marketing when it comes to howmuch onsit time you need is pretty stark right. So there's a Ceri there'scertain issue there, but but at the end of the day it's it really just comes down to tomaybe one one meeting that gouses it forward, and I would say that forMidmarkets, that's almost nonexistent yeah one yeareltan shift. It's aninteresting shift and you talk about that decompression right like because Ilived, I mean the man one of the big...

...deals I clase. I was bouncing back andforth between the East and the West Coast every week going to site, youknow, on site in the West Coast, go to o R headquarters on the East Coast, andit's just like you said they expected toy, almost expectyou Yo to be there,and now I I'm tryin to I don't know if I've closed anything in the lasteighteen months. It's required me to show up and we're talking we're nottalking. You know, multimillion dollar deals, but we're not talking small oneseither. There's this level of you know. Oh Hey. I finally meet you when I showup to perform some of the services for the first time. I shake your hand forthe first time and the hardest thing for me was when I went to the airportand didn't have status anymore. That was ow. I get. That was the way Iasi was m yeah. I was MVP gold for a long time and you know flying isn'tthat painful when you're that level of status and the all of a sudden you'relike okay? Now I really remember now: Wy peonp Er hate flying hay. Hotel andcar renol yeah that's right: okay, yeah, but but to your point, it's reallygoten less and less and less, and I honestly think, there's a generation ofsellers and I was in it where you're very tempted to keepbuying plane tickets instead of building a tool box and a set ofactivities and routine. That really allow you to be successful with virtualtelling and so what so? Okay. So that's kind ofa one perspective on what virtual selling is, what is virtual selling,not virtual selling is is not doing it while you're in a drivethrop. That's probably the best way I coulddescribe it. I think there's a lot of people to think virtual selling is easyfor it's. I can be a little laccedaisical about the approach or Ican have a really crutdy Bluetooth, headset and still get the job. Toi meanthere're certain things that almost become amplified as whatI'm trying to say right. You know if you were never really good at pickingup on nonverbal audio cues. You better get good at it now, because that threeseconds of silence in the meeting, when you can't see everybody- and I know,there's video calling and we can talk about the pros and cons of that too.But but the reality is, you have to become this incredible listener and questioner that reallyexceeds what you would have to do in person, because in person you have allthis other qes that you get to deal with right, and so I think I think a lot of it is it's not it's not setting yourself up forsuccess right and that's standpoint and people will kind of start doing virtualselling and they say it doesn't work, and I think it's because they'reactually using kind of the old process applied to this new approach and thenit ends up not working, really well form. It requires a different level offocus. In my experience like like you have to really have done your homework.If you really focus on hat's, going on no distractions like if you're on thecall you're on the call not reading an email or dealing with slack or going tothe drive through or walk into the fridge, as you know, wewere talkingabout earlier, I think it requires at least from those that I've seen and enthe Times that I do it it is. It is a different level of focus and and beingpresent that I would have seen in more face to face situations right now, exactly and and there's sometrade offs. For sure I mean you know if your face to face- and you know Canonhas his buddy, you know stacy who's down the hall that he wants to connectyou with for a future project. That's a little faster when it's in person,because you might just walk you down to Stacy's office, but the reality is yoursales process wasn't going to end there anyway. So if they introduce Souovertaland have a phone call, you know you still got to do the rest of itregardless and I think there's there's definitely like a like. Yousaid: There's a level of focus you have to have and there's even someadvantages. Frankly, I mean I remember with a lot of Incearsan visits whereyou know you meet somebody, let's use the Microsoft example again right. Youknow, you're talking to somebody theyre out a new product team, there's a newproduct they launched. I mean hat launched yesterday. This isn't like apreh issue. You know you're being introduced to them. Now, if you're inperson, you can't pull up the website while you're right, frontif them right,you can't you can't google reviews of a product and, of course, to your pointabout being focused. You have to know how good of a multicascard you are. Canyou listen and do this stuff at the same time? But if you can what a hugeadvantage and the same thing with take an notes right now, everybody who'sdone. Sales knows you can't be this kind of typing machine, while you're inthe meeting right, where you just taking really really great type notesfor written notes that that's the way you want to go about it because you gotto make eye contact. You got to like be connected with the person kind of youknow, nonverbally and physically and stuff like that you're on the phone you could take some pretty awesomenotes right because you're just right there, you know talking to him over thephone. Now I pit's he video you got to star into the camera little bit more,but even there I think your ability to kind of have them say something, andyou even in line with the conversation...

...look stuff up is great and I've usedthat even from selling us in the sense of you know, I can very quickly say, gocheck out our site while we're on the phone and that always felt a littlemore salsy. If I was in the room right, hey look at my screen here. Look lookat this, or can you go to your computer and check out this? You know it's alittle less o kind of in their face. I guess, andit's a little easier to do if you're just on the phone, so I think there's alot of advantages, but you have to structure the call and your time theright way, and so, when you look at you know kind of virtual selling, I mean it's, not it'snot new. I mean it's getting more prevalent, I believe, but if you lookat it kind of when it started say five seven years ago, how have you seenvirtual selling change over the last? You know five, seven years since, sincewe were given the tools, whether they were good or not at the points, adifferent discussion, but since we started to get the tools like go tomeeting and and video conferencing and stuff, how have you seen virtualselling evolve? Well, one thing I mentioned earlier:The clients accept it now. It reminds me erely of something thathappened with our first business, where we didn't have an office. We had a DSLline just to show you how long ago that was, and we and that was considered fast and we hadan exchange server in one of the owners. Basements literally remember, this isthree guys right and so, and it worked, and I remember vividlygoing into meetings with people ATA Microsoft at an Intel Etca. They say sowhere's your offc et's say we don't have one and initially there was thislike. Oh you're, not real right right. It's like the same thing. Yourrelatives do until you have employees, you don't really have a business. Youknow kind of thing, and so it's that whole thats whole thing. Yeah you'relike now wait a minute ow. Why is that legitimate? And so that went away? Nobody. Nobody caresabout that anymore right and and what I used to tell people back, then is youcould pay for it? If somebody get really difficult, I literally say thatin a nice tone of voice, say you could pay for my office and for a second they'd, be like whatdo you mean like well? Who else is going to pay for it you're going to payfor it? You I mean at the end of the day, I'm going to bill it to you notdirectly, but indirectly I am so. Why don't we just like assume, I don't needan office, and so I think the virtual selling in someways is changed to a similar degree. They like the factthat they don't implicitly have to pay for your playng ticket and they don'thave to pay for you to come out all the time and they construction they. Andthe second thing is the tools. The tools have just gotten great. If you think about crms. Ten years agoversus tearms, now, there's a pluser, really good choices, usually tied toyour industry, tie to your selling motion. You can pick something that's avery tailor made for you scheduling tools. I don't know how manytimes clients has said that callenly thing Ho work you use is great. Thacalenly is not the only game in town, but there's there's other ones like it,but what they're saying when they say that and for the listeners, if you havean Euse countal league, you basically send out a link and the link isstructured by you. You say I offer thirty minute meeting slots or ourmeeting splots on certain days and you set up the algorithm an you, send outthe link and then the person you seid it. You pick their time to meet withyou and there's similar tools like this and seriously. I must be five times aweek. Somebody in an enterpriseor bid market goes, and I don't know how theyhaven't, seen these tools yet right. His tellers are using a mark, butthey're like that was great. That was so easy to set up a meeting and whatthey're really saying it Isick, even if they don't articulate it es.Many moons ago when people met me, we sat with our Franklin Hubby Dayplanners and we looked at each other and we figured out the next meeting cutand that was efficient, and I really like that that cou course I thinkingthis out loud, like nobody said Franklins compy day, playner Rightt thefirst person to say that on a podcast in the last seven years. But but thepoint is they know it's hard to do it virtuallyit's email back and forth, and then, by the time you get back to hem they're,meeting splop taken and Thet Doors Takin, you know, and eventually theyget frustrated with you. They don't really say they're frustrated with you,but they're like I'm, going to work with the seller. That's easier toschedule with, and what's it really mean by? That is just his schedule,lined up better with mine. It wasits necessarily easier and callandly takesthat all away and it becomes kind of a very asynchreni interaction and fromtheir standpoint they chery pick what they want. The same things, true with things likeUber Conference. I love that tool because it's pinless it's the samegoofy thing just yesterday. I had two people from Intel and they get on the call and they'relike this is really neat. It doesn't have a pin. This is awesome because youknow, and I'm like okay, I mean, I know your it guys convince you you're havinga secure conversation every time and you really need like a seventeen. Youknow hexa decimal, pin to make this thing work, but you don't you know hereally really don't you could just have a phone number and it would be fine and- and so my point is a lot of the stuffis just made it very, very smooth to have the call get on the call take thenotes schedule all the rest of that stuff right, and I think-...

...and I culd go on with that here-There's other tools that I think are really important, but at the end of theday, if you build up that little tool box, you actually are much easier to dealwith than you were back in the day with your dayplanner sitting in their officeand you can operate it a scale that you never could before yeah. Without adoubt, I'm with you. I think that calendar link and when I'm working withclients and teaching class and stuff is one of the things I point out. I thinkit is probably one of the most impactful technologies that salesprofessionals have had at their forr have at their finger tips. It justmakes things seemless and I'm to your point, I don't understand why morepeople haven't heard of it. It's not like it's not like it's particularlynew. I mean I, I guess maybe adoption of it's ramping up, but I mean there are peopleout there. That should be very aware of that, and it just it saves my time toit saves I time for the customer makes it seemless, and so I'm going to ECO, which son setif youcause haven't looked at calily or schedule once or the hub spots got onein it like you guys need to find yee to find one of those really quick andstart using it. What other beside crm and Uber Conference stuff like that,give me a couple of other tools that you really fond of in the virsualselling environment. Well, one is a patch io, and that is ina class of tools. That's similar again. It's like callantly, like if you said,attach io competitors in Google. You probably end up a GTO crowd or one ofthose sites and itwould show you ten other options. So I just particularlylike the catch Igo and we use that forsending out research Priefe, which is what we call our initialproposal. That goes out to the client and you loaded up in the tool, and itcan show you metrics of when they accessed it, which pages of theproposal they looked at and how many different people havelooked at it, and you know there's tools like this, but but if you reallyinvest in them a good story that happened this past year, because we'vebeen using them for a few years now is end of the year. You know: ClientsReset their budgets they get prepared for next year. Talking about largeraccounts, ciically right that Mi run on a calendar and they've got a lot ofkind of strategic planning priand that impact. You know research, because alot of times they want research in advance of those meetings are afterthem, and so we'll tend to get a lot of activity. That starts to brew up latein the year and early in year, and so you know I've got, I don't knowhundreds of proposals and attach io now over the years, and it's really funnyit's. I love the fish and everybody so anybody's been fishing. You know, ifyou put a bunch of lines out, you know you've gone over school of fish becauseall the line start to vibrate right. You have these magical moments,sometimes where, like all the lines hit and everybody in the boats got a fishon. You know that doest happen all the time, but sometimes it does, and that'swhere I'm going with this is with attach io, because those links areattachments to emails that the best you could do is tell like if somebody opendthe email again now they kind of come live like fishing line and so last year in December, all of a suddenlike December. Second, a bunch of the lines started to twinch, and these wereproposals. I said a few months before that they said they needed a waight onbudget or whatever, and it was this incredible Dashbord of analytics rightwhere I was able to kind of resurface this stuff based on that that twingleon the line again right and if I send it as an attachment, I would have neverknown right and if I tried to wait to have the INPERSON meeting, I couldn'thave that any INPERSONA, so s anyway, so taciwas one and then I would also say something like zoom.You know for video conferencing make that idiot proof too. Many of the video conferencingtools that were in the first generation were frankly horrible in terms of howgood they were Ow, and so you need something where the client can justkind of jump in really quick. We use video for almost everything now clientcalls status, calls sales calls and it's fantastic and- and you know on thenext breed of tools, these are beyond what we would personally need, but Ikeep track of these because we work sometimes at marketing or sales teamsand for Thei Research Needs, of course, and I will kind of want to know whattool set they're using there's tools like wone, I came across the other day.It was like the CORUS DOT AI. I think his is called and there's these toolsnow that will just plug into your inside sale, team and record every callthey're having let you run analytics on it. It'll do automatic transcription ofevery interaction and there's obviously been monitoring tools for this kind ofstuff before, but the cost of where this is going, you can have like a fiveperson inside sales team and some startup, and you could plug one ofthese things in and get fantastic analytics on. Everything that'shappening. No is Ot agother other one like that called Gong, Dad Io, thatdoes it do yeah yea that one to and then there's a new Yah Balto softwareactually designed to give to do all of that, but then also give you a visual qof Word Choice: speed if you're, makingtoo many statements versus questions that one's in in Beta right now. Butthose things are amazing to me exactly and I think the next wave toolsfor sales automation were kind of at...

...the space marketing. Automation wasmaybe three years ago. I think, where you know, marketing automation as aphrase really meant your Crm, plus your newsletter to plus a few social colthree four five years ago. Right, that's what it meant, and then it's notthat anymore. We all know that there's like four thousand tools or fivehousanders, that guy that puts out the marketing AU, omation landscape, posterevery here that big inphographic right and there's like fivethousand of thosethings on there. So now, you're in a state and marketing automation, whereyou have like incredible analytics an incredible kind of ability to monitorcontent and sales. We haven't even seen how far this is going to go, althoughit does lead to another point, which is that I think on virtual selling the marketing your company does. Has Ithas an outsize influence on your success to in a way that it didn't whenyou were doing a lot of inperson selling, and we could get to that atsome point to excellent, and so, if you, if you couldyou know, we've talked to tools, wo talked kind of what the Definiti is.Why buyers are more receptitute today, but if you could give the audiencethree tips that you think would make them more effective at a virtualselling. What would they be? I would think you know, probably the it's tough right- it's tough to boilthat down right after that many years, but but if I was to say fo for virtue still selling inparticular and to some degree selling in general, ask great question: Youknow asked really really good questions is fundamentally going to set to youapart from almost anybody, so many people pitch. So many people havestatements. So many people have an ability to kind of orate really well,you know t e their sales process is likeshakespearian in terms of their ability to communicate, but in entire fortyminutes they never asked a good question Andand. I think, and I think, if, ifyou open with good question the client all and notice, I didn't say, goodanswers right, there's two distinctions therelike like, yes, have good answers, know your client space, know your industry,but initially sometimes frank. Frankly, if it's a brand new company to you,there's only so much, you can spin up on and F R, and you also have to watchout for Hubris. You don't really know them that. Well at that point, nomatter how much you study, and so a good question, though, can go a longway. The second thing is, I said for years, I've sold more by saying no than sayingyes, and I don't mean an obnoxious. No, Idon't mean it's Suterior. No, I don't mean like no like the Fndi guy doeswhen you're trying to negotiate your card deal right. I don't mean like that. What I mean is no, I wouldn't do that.I would suggest this. No. I don't really understand why you're trying todo these two things. At the same time, they don't quite seem to line up rightor know. We don't do that to that point earlier right in my own sales process. I don't knowhow many time times in the middle of a call, I've said we don't do that andthey're drawn in now. I don't mean it's Mackavellian, I don't mean like I'myeah. We really do at to do it, but I just tell you we don't that's not whatI mean it's like. We don't do it and they go well Gosh. You must know whoyou are. You must, and- and this is true even if you're doing selling forsomebody else right like like you- really know what your company doesn'tdo and I guarantee there's some sales managers out there that are justscreaming right now, because they're like never, never, never, never, neverright- and this happened even with my own seller doers in my company, whenI'm training them, I happend the other day we were having this call with Intel,and I said we don't do this and we don't de this, and we don't do this andthe seller doer said. I never do that and I'm like you need to start doingthat. I keep telling you you got to do that and he's like and he's like. Iknow what happens hat. They trusted o right because they have to trust you ifthey're going to buy for you, you might as well tell thim what you don't doyeah you know, and so that's that and the last one would be. I think you know for this virtual selling really focuson the audio, and this is virtual selling. In specific, I don't know how many times I'vewatched somebody try to do virtual, telling tour Credi, confeience son, Imean plan, you know, polycom has never made a good conference phone of myopinion just just frankly, because that nobody likes talking to anybodythroughhim and so really focus on how your audio sounds.Like imagine, you're a podcaster would be a really good analogy like the kindof quality you want that podcast to sound like so when you crank it up enine in your car, it sounds really buttery and it soundsreally robust. Think about your calls. That way, because I guarantee whatillhappen is...

...people will just stay on lankersthey'll enjoy talking to you. They'll feel like this is a goodexperience and it's such a subtle thing, but it's huge. I mean I have no ideahow much money I've spent on good quality headsets over the years, but Ihaven't regretted a dollar of it, because clients are always like. Thatsounds really good. You know, and there meanwhile talking to me on some Creadipolicop, so ihave, but but but at least I sound good to them. Sorry polycome,you guys have done good work somewhere, I'm not sure where but UST not for us g, so UBR, let's Kive ithere a little bit and talk about cascade insight. So we talkd about theimportance of mark. You mentioned them important of marketing when Youe doinvirtual selling. Can you help the audience understand? How do youstructure those efforts inside of cascade in order to drive net newbusiness yeah? So so we have like a lot ofconsulting firms. We have you know some usually a principal of the firm me inthis case leading sales and then, if you're doing it right, you also haveseller doers right. You take some of your people who are doing and you trainthe teye seller doers and at the moment, two of our folks wore analysts havebeen kind of for about a year now kind of being led through kind of on the jobtraining and how to do it, and I actually just told thim the other daythey kind of graduated and at least its sage one, and fromthat standpoint, D and that'll take a while to get them right because you'retaking a doer and trying to convert him selling on the marketing side, I've gottwo marketing people that reports to me full time and that's a real difference.I think for a firm of our size. You know we've got about a dozen employeesand got two full time marketers, but it's been huge because we've heard time and time again, fom plients thatwe hit above our weyt parketing wise. They love our sight. They love theclarity of it. They love the content, weproduce that it's on message thatit's the kind of things they want to hear and we're extremely focused on allaspects of good marketing. You know whether it's appropriate use of advies for B to befor our kind of audience whether it's Seo the kind of content we produce ourcontent calendar. We spend a lot of time. Thinking is that is the website aperfect example of what we'd want to pitch deck. To look like fora, which isa funny thing. I still have clients to this day. That'll be like send me yourPitchdeck, I'm, like you know, that's the website right like why. Why would Ihave anything other than the website and they always laugh whut? I said Ibecause theyre like yeah, it's kind of silly. Why would I want to PK Tferright, which link should I go? Look at and and so, and a good example of where that can behelpful in virtual selling. Is We were we've been working with CITRIX for awhile, but they wanted to upsize this one project of ours and they knew thatone of these VPS was going to have to sign off on it, and they literally toldme this. They said Hey. We took your proposal into the VP. You know thisupsize version of the project if we wanted to move to and the VP never metyou, but we had to look at your website and after about five minutes, HEU saidthese are the guys I want to hire now. I don't normally get that kind ofclarity, because if anybody's read stuff like the CB reports and stuff onbe to b sales process, you know there's somewhere between five to six peopleinvolved in every deal. Virtually you won't maybe meet all of them. You mightnot have ever met all of them, even if it was in person for that matter, but that website and really goodmarketing becomes this ambazing afterburner on your virtual selling. Itright right because all those other people, then they kind of sellthemselves and grow toward you. You still need to sell, but I think it's just mastive and thenyouall stalk about the birus journey changes which a lot of people knowabout. You know that, depending on your industry, fifty to ninety percent ofthe sales like that was is done before that you even heard from them. You justhave to get really savvy with marketing and I think it's also something is afinal thought on it. It can scale up or down as meet it right. So I'm not saying you start off with all of it like if you're more of a SolaPreneur, I was talking to a guy who's, one person business and he looked hat.We were doing he's like. I can't do all that, I'm like you, don't start with.All of that, you don't have to start with a podcast called B to be revealed.You don't have to start with a big website. You Don have to start withthree or four articles a month and study. You just start with a clean site.That is the best example of the same pityou would have given person and you nail it rightand and from thatfoundation you build the rest of it yeah the marketing portion of it isbecoming ever ever more critical. These days I gree one hundred percent, butwhen you guys are starting to plan for two thousand and eighteen right, you'releading the team into two thousnd ad eighteen, what's the strategic businessobjective, as you guys had into add into the new year, I want to keep growing the list ofclients. We have. You know we're in a space where this little funny side, marketing storyrelated to that is. My Web Team Lie Love Right, just love! This group, th twe've worked with for years.

It's called the cursner group, it's ledby woman named Aaric Curser, and she does a great job. But one of the thingsyour team does is on our what we do page. We have all our client logos andevery time she sends he aversion of the page for a new edit when we work ont atshe drops it down to four logos, because she hates the fact that thatclient logo block is so big, and I say every time I talk to a client though,and I walk in through the site. They do a full stop on the client Logal Blockbecausewe're focused on one industry. So for my standpoint, I want to keepgrowing there in the number of clients. If we're talking about sales objectivesand a marketing objective standpoint, there's always things to learn there. One of the biggest things I think werefocused on on marketing is the transition from organic to paid,because even if you're doing awesome stuff- and you may know this fomrunning a show right- the difference between three to fouryears ago- ind your ability to get organic traction with content versusnow it's night and day I mean theyre, you know for anybody doing it its scale.There's got to be some kind of pain opponent to it and that's kind of on mymind this year. In terms of things I'd like to get a lot smarter about, I meanwe're doing some of it now, but it's it's something I like to do a lot moreof and we've had some really really good success there, because there'ssome really cool things you can do with paid retargeting campaigns and allkinds of stuff. If you do it right, so that s that's two thousand and eighteenand is there, I aske, thus again, I'm cind of alittle off track now, but you've Picke, my intrest, because you're right, I runthis podcast. So are there things that you have seen from the pad that aremore effective than others or places, especially, you know you guys arespecifically targeting B to be tech companies, but have you seen thingsthat are more effective? You mentionedretargeting. We talked to Tim, Matthews, who's E, VP marketing for coming calledIMPERVA, and he was talking about pre targeting the text almost getting tothe point where you could almost get ahead, O of people, I'm just kind ofcurious. What have you seen in the PADE side? That's that's, really impressedyou or worked or made you believe that that shift has been beneficial yeah. Well, it's been beneficial justbecause I've noticed the impact on our content numbers. Just when I do it, youknow we did it. Here's a good example. We did a what Ithought was a really good interview with a Guy Ryan single on net netrality,and it's the latest episode on the show B to be revealed, and I you know wehave our normal ways of promoting it s. just like everybody does I spend ahundred dollars on a twitter ad that one post I put out got threehundred likes for a hundred bucks. You know I' like to say all of Erpostget three hundred likes, they dont soat the end of the day right, some ofthat targeting works really well and the retargeting stuff a good examplethere for a podcast one. For example, I got this tip from somebody else. It wasin the podcast mastermind GROIP in facebook. I wish I could remember theguys name, but I'd attributed to him, but I just don't, but he had a walkthrough video of putting facebook retargeting on your site, and so youjust target visitors to your site with podcast ads on facebook, and it's beenreally successful for a B to be podcast, because you know, if you think about it,people in business when they're on facebook- that's probably a little moreof their free time, they're much more likely, perhaps to kind of grab apodcast and thit there as two o'clock in the middle of a conference remeatingwith somebody else right, because whane of most people do a podcast, Hey,listen to the first episode or two right or check it out, and so you hithim at a time where they're more likely to do that. They're on the couch scrollinto pictures of friends and all of ae sudden. This had comes up and ye likeyeah, I geyt's a business podcast, but I yeah I might like that right. So theretargeting STEF's really big linkedin AD. I interviewed a Guy On lengthin adsOA alive in a couple months, and you know he gave credence to what Inoticed. It's a very expensive way to fly unlinked in at, and I think that'llchange. But right now, while we dabble in Linkon, we've been a lot moreeffective on facebook content, that's more culture, brand, focuse or podcastfocuse, because it's a little lighter in a way. You know it's not like youknow related directly to the research we do a hundred percent right and thenfor Google adwards. We've been spending a lot on more, like really targetedstuff to the research we gi, and so that's that's where we've gottena lot of upleft and I use twitter occasionally. But but here's the thing, everybodythat I've interviewed on my show at least about marketing, I've kind of formy own addification, if it like you've, mentioned a few times here in this thisintervier. I ask him like. So what about organic and pay and everybody Italked to this year, every marking, leader PR leader, whatever is like yeah,you got to go, spend it's just the way the games played now, that's how theseguys are optimizing the platform. So I think the idea of awesome content,brink locks of iballs is less true than before, and you just got to get realabout it right, right, excellent, all right. So, let's change direction alittle bit here. We ask all of our...

...guess kind of two standard questionstowards the end of each interview. The first is simply as a CEO as a revenueexecutive in sales parlance that makes you atarget or prospect. I would love for you to help our audience understandwhen someone you don't know, is trying to get in front of you believe theyhave a solution or something that that will help solve a problem for you.What's the best way to capture your attention and build credibility? Well, I wouldn't do what this guy didthe other day. It was so bad that I actually like started actually layingit out word for word and flak, which is what we use for internal communications.So my cello deers could see how bad it was D, it's short by the way, but but itwas like he got on and said something doesn'treally matter. It was his basic introductory statement about thecompany and I always say what's this regarding because Thas first tavement,sometimes you're so vague, like you, don't really know so I say what's thisregarding, and he literally said, that's Great Ande said something I said what's thisregarding, and he said again that's great. I have to admit I lost it. I finallykind of broke out- and I said I said, do you know what I just said and he andhe almost started to say that's great again, n. You could just picture himlooking at this script going I'm supposed to say, but that just seems wrong, unlike everylevel, to say that back to this man, and so I finally got him recognized, weweren't even revotely a target, tre ition. I mean it didn't matter whatvalue propery had we weren't even revotely in his universe, right whichwas fine and he got it, and so what I would say works for me is be direct open. The call ask me if it'sa good time and mean it there's a woman Sharon, Jew, Morgan who's rose UF, somereally good stuff over the year, she's, not as active in writing as she wasonce was, and she used to mention that in herbook sales on the line, it was a book for telemarketers back in the, but it'sstill actually an interesting reading from a historical standpoint. But inthe beginning she said just ask: If it's a good time like be direct, youknow, don't do this like fuzzy weirdness at the star Ho. I have tokind of guess what you're talking about. I mean that's not going to help you andthen don't Badger, educate, educate me right and, like I said, it',just ask a good question. Even that'll full stop me and I'll be like. So whatwas that just badgering me right to kind of stayon the line right? It's like they run it like it's a game of how long theystay on matters, and we both know. That's not the case right. You coan,you can close deals in a forminute phone call. I mean not really that youcan move itto the next stage, and- and so that's probably the biggest thing rightthat I those two things I mean. Don't bad is a good yeah asking questionsright, don't Badger, educate me and and be direct. If you do those two things,you probably get my attention better than anything else: Yeah, we call itwhen we teach it to student, we teach it to clans. We called a pattern.Interrupt just O, ask them be direct and ask the catch it a bad time,because most people don't take the time to do that. So it' literally ceptsmakes them kind of stutter step well weln and on that yeah. On that point, really quick, just sorry about the eruption but Sharons,you Morgan ties it back to NLP, which I don't really believe a lot of the NLPstuff, but but there's a point of it exactly the same thing. It's this kindof targeted interruption right that kind of unlocks their brain and theydon't go to the road kind of process they have for dealing with you and toyour point, you can use that in a lot of places. You don't have to just useit at the start of the call. It rea really good technique, right, excellent,allright, so last question we calleid our acceleration insight. If there'sone thing, you could tell sales or marketing professionals, one piece ofadvice: If you gave them today and they actually pai attention to it,internalize that that you believe would help them hit their targets or bebetter tomorrow. What would it be? And why be brave enough to say no seriously, just just say no, a littlemore? No, it isn't a good time to talk, because I'm not going to be like reallyspun up on you by that point in time. You know. No, I don't want to stuffthat in this proposal, because it's not in your best interest, you know no, we don't have to scale to thatbudget number, because a smaller project would actually suffice to meetyour need if they trust you to say no you're going to be way better off forthe long run, especially if you're selling large Accountso we're going tohave a relationship for many years, that's a much better place to start sojust say no more often yeah, there's no more powerful words there. It is themost powerful word in sales, and I've told that to my teams for years itcreates authenticity, health built trust, but you don't see a lot of salesrest to it, because I all get so flustered about all. I got hit thequota and they're, not thinking about the customer they're thinking abouttheir number, rather than what's Best Tact Lik run for the business actuallywell son. I can't thank you enough for being on the show today. If a listenerwants to talk to you more about the things that we've talked about today,what's the best way to get in contact,...

...they can just email me my email, SeanSe, an at cascade insidecom and that's on the site to if you go, take a lookat the contact as spage and obviously if they want to check out bee to berevealed as another podcast they could. They could listen to that for a whileto excellent all right everyone that does it for this episode, please checkus out at BTB, Revizeccom show the episode with friends, Family Coworkers,and, if you like, what you hear do is favorite rihtist orview on itunes. Wouldo pay attention to that until next time we value prime solutions wish youall nothing, but the greatest success you've been listening to the BTBrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show, an itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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