The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 2 months ago

Lisa & Carlos Steal the Show w/ Sales Methodology Secrets

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

No matter how many times you do something successfully, there is always room for new approaches that elevate success to the next level — whether that’s finding the perfect way to help clients scale their business with an easy-to-follow and consultative sales framework… or the perfect new hosts to carry everyone’s favorite sales podcast into the future.

Today, I’m joined by two guests who are so fantastic, I’ve decided to hand the keys to the show over to them. Seriously — after nearly 250 episodes, I'm passing the torch to Carlos Nouche and Lisa Schnare, who join the show to share everything you need to choose the perfect sales methodology for your business.

We discuss:

  • When an organization needs to adopt a sales methodology
  • How to find the perfect vendor for your organization’s needs
  • Why Lisa and Carlos are the perfect hosts to succeed me

As you’ll hear, you are in great hands with Carlos and Lisa, but I do want to thank you for your loyalty throughout the past 250 or so episodes you’ve spent listening to my voice. 

Until next time, I wish you nothing but the greatest success. — Chad Sanderson, Managing Partner at ValueSelling Associates

Now that you know how to find the winning sales methodology, are you ready to learn how to conduct killer marketing tests or use data to prevent revenue leaks in your business? Check out the full list of episodes: The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

You were listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies were tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the BB revenue executive experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. Today we're doing something a little bit different. After almost two hundred and fifty plus episodes, it's about time for me to pass the rains some other people. So we're going to be talking to to new associates that are going to be taking over the CO hosting and hosting responsibilities for this podcast moving forward. Will probably all three shares we go go into the future. But we're also going to talk about when it comes to a sales methodology, what do you really need to be successful when you're trying to find a vendor, trying to select a vender, trying to figure out what's gonna work best for your organization. So with us we have Carlos no Jay, is a managing partner with us. Carlos a hello, hello, one that was so energetic. We also have with US least this snar. It's also a managing partner with the firm, least to say hello, Hi folks, happy to be here. See, that was a little bit better. So, Carlos, that's what we're looking for. We're gonna have to work on energy level, Bro that's why she's my cohost. I'm really her cohos. That's really what it is. So I'm going to ask you both the same question we asked all of our guests in the past, and Carls, will start with you. I'm always curious to know something that you're passionate about that those that only know you through work might be surprised to learn. I guess I'm passionate about a couple of them things, but I'll give you one that people don't know a lot about me. So a couple of years ago I got into this, you know, sidebyside for willing because some of my neighbors and I'm passionate enough about it that I've built like, I don't know, a mile and a half of trails through my property. So we got our own little track to go through Nice. Very cool, all right, at LEASTA. How about you, something you're passionate about that those that only know you through work might be surprised to learn. Well, so during this last few years I took up at home hobby of arm knitting. So I make blankets with my hands, my arms, and because I've never had the coordination, actually learned how to fit with needles. But this uses this uses bigger yarn. It makes these big, cozy, comfy blankets, and so now everyone in my life gets one for gifts because it's just that's what I do to keep my hands busy. Have you got one? Chat? I haven't got a Christ who got one? I don't know what's going on with this. They're big. I don't have to like backpack that Shit. I don't know how I'd send it through the mail. Yeah, if I would let it in from Canada. That's true. Yeah, also super sketchy. Yeah, all, you can't send covid test to Mexico, so maybe you can't send nitted blankets from Canada to America. So who knows? All right, so cool. So let's let's talk about when an organizations trying to figure out how it's time to put in a sales methodology. We need to drive consistency of behavior from rep to Rep. we need a foundations we can scale. You know what does that? Let's talk about what that process looks like. So they have this first thought like hey, maybe it's time for US foot in a sales methodology, and they started thinking about it. First and foremost, of curious to though, who do you think should be involved, and I'll start with Carlos Carus. Who you think should be involved in that decision making process? And why? Well, you called it, you know, some sort of sales training, your sales methodology. So, first off and foremost, I think sales need to get involved, and I know that sounds almost like, oh, of course, you idiot, but I can't tell you how many times they've they've decided internally we're doing this, and they hand it off to other folks in the organization to figure out what this is, when sales needs to own it just as much as anyone else. In fact, it's really their program so sales leadership, some of your top sales people that are really guiding that sales culture, should be involved. As one person I throw in there, or groups...

...of people throw about. You leases anybody you'd add to that list? You know we often talk to enablement, but it's the CRO SV piece of sales that are the ones who really need to reinforce a methodology. If you're not talking like a quick and dirty, want and done training, you want a methodology that is going to alter your culture. Then you also want the rest of those revenue generating teams involved. Ideally this is an alignment across the entire revenue team at minimum. Absolutely. And then, of course there's also marketing. This is going to have a play in it, right, they're going to have some say in it, if because they're going to be providing producing assets for the sales organizations as well. And then what's what's interesting is in a lot of cases people look at sales when we say sales training, they look at the sidelow. It's o Oh yeah, it's all here. And what we want to do, especially as we've seen the demograph exchange across the last few years in the leadership sweetes, is make sure that it's actually breaking down silos. So there's probably more people that need to be involved. And then you would think, I mean, I don't I don't know about you too, but I can say in the last year I, because of what we do because it is a cross functional communication framework. I've trained just as many sales people as I have technical architects day too, analysts, anybody that has a customer facing role so that they understand how to truly support that buying process. Now, when we think about all of the options that are out there, it's not like it's not a crowded market. Well, how are people supposed to approach that evaluation figure out what's going to work best for their business? There any hints or tick tips or tricks? You'd give them the Lisa. But yeah, well, I think Carlos through his hand up, so I'll let him jump in. So he before we get into the tipster tricks. I think one is right off the bat. Mindsets really important in this. So I got this crazy idea. If you're going to go roll out a sales training program, let's not call it that. We remember the days, you know, when you were a sales are up. Soon as someone to hey, we're doing some sales training, the first reaction was, can I get out of it because I'm already good at what I do? Second Reaction, okay, so you're forcing me to do it. Fine. How quickly can I get through it and back to my old behaviors that I know work for me. So mindsets really important. So one of the things, as you get these different parties involved, whether you think about sales and business development and sales executives and presales and you got customer success and services on the other end, why are we doing this? What is the purpose? Why? Why Change? Why take time out of the field to do something? And if we can get everybody on that same goal, then hey, get there now. I got to tell you half the ballance just agreeing on what that is right in a lot of buble say well, we've grown to the point where we need it. Why? I mean, we worked with organizations that have gotten over a billion dollars in revenue that have not had a formal sales process, but sooner or later they hit a saturation point and in the market they have a cultural point internally and they want to scale and improve. And you know it's not because they're not doing certain things right, they're just want to do it more efficiently and level up. So why are we doing this? Can we get that consensus? I throw that endres like yeah, so you know, how do you get stirred down this past talked about the WHO's and we talked about a bunch of different people. Can we set a different mindset? My little hit, and then I'm throwing it over to the Lisa is this needs to be really about revenue optimization, not about some training. Ye, I love that as a really good point. And I think you know, one of the other things is like selling that mindset into the rest of the organization. Something I bring up a lot is that this is something you carry with you for the rest of your career. This is not a you know, I took a couple hours of sales training online. A methodology, a true methodology that is again like altering your culture, that...

...is adopted and reinforced and inspected, is actually something that you can get. That's a that's a feather in your cap, that's something you put on your resume, that is something you can carry with you from from place to place, and we see it all the time. We get calls from people who move organizations. They want to put in our methodology. Then it's awesome because that's something they realize is such a an asset. And when we're of course, when we're telling people who are in the training I bring up the certification every time. I'm like that certification doesn't stay with your company, it stays with you. The badge on your linkedin profile. That is something that you keep and hasten will become an asset on your resume. So so they can't just think about it as if this is a benefit to the organization. So getting that personal value, that personal buy and is incredibly important to drive the adoption. Absolutely agree, and one of the things that I think sets he is one of those things that when people are looking for these types of solutions, they should look at these. Are you working with a vendor who has an approach beyond just hey, we're going to do some training, right do we? Are we working with somebody who has a true change management approach, a proven way to increase adoption application and secure those benefits sooner rather than later? As they're going through now, it can be hard, be difficult to determine, you know, what organization, what offering out there is going to be the right fit for my organization and I'm curious when company start to evaluate, what are you know, you think about the top three things that maybe they should be thinking about when they're evaluating potential partner in this space. What are the three things that you would recommend the audience keep in mind as they do this evaluation? Carlos, and I'm thinking about something different. Knockett, Carlos is checking slack? No, like when you think about evaluating this thing, like I guess. Sorry, I'm still stuck out with something that Lisa said because I agree with it so much. And it's funny because I just have a one of my clients right now as a security company. They have a great culture, they got great momentum. But besides doing this program to really level up their team and it pee part of their culture, one of the things that they're hr person who was involved, or each our leader was involved in the selection process, by the way, was hey, folks, let's not forget this is a huge investment our people. Talent is competitive these days. It is hard to get good talent and it's hard to me you may retain good talent. So this is let's view. This thing isn't not something're making them go through get. It just goes off with Lisa said, but this is an investment in our people. All right, so now I'm going back to your question, Chad. What are the three things? Go ahead again repeat that for me. My add out in the way. I'm not a hundred percent sure what I've been asked you. What what are the what are the top three things if somebody's going to go evalue weight and I think your comment on the investment in the people is an important one, because there are solutions out there in this space that can be, you know, a one, two, three person shop all the way up to global organizations like ours that can scale and they can look at and understand here's current state of a culture, here's where the end state of the culture is going to be. So thinking about is this something that is going to be implemented to attract or retain top talent, or is it going to be something that's implemented to help them ensure that they have a career path for str through a into customer success and they're all speaking the same language. I mean having a vendor that has the ability to do that, a partner that can actually bring that to the table in a proven way. I think is an important element of something I would be evaluating and have evaluated in the past as a crow. I'm just curious what else Carlos you think they should be looking for as they're looking at the different options are out there. Yeah, so I'll just say like you, you just said it twice, but like a true partner, and maybe that's obvious, but it's not. Again, like I'm here for your success throughout the duration and this is not something that we we spend three days together and then break up. We are together, we are part where, an extension of your team, and I think that's a really important thing. If you want to have a successful change management process, you need that partner right there with you and that's part of your evaluation. I do also think that what I love the idea of using this as something to like,...

...attract talent, because if you're promoting that you do this type of training for your people, then you are definitely going to be one of their top, you know, competitive offers, because that's what those are the differentiators in the market now, like people are being poached left, right and center. I hear from people who are trying to hire every single day. So if you are going to differentiate your organization above the rest, have that be something that that is well, I got another feather in your cap. Are almost like a perk is is we are willing to invest in our people. But then, yeah, I think, like, thirdly, I do think you need to find someone who is going to be evangelical about their process for you because again, like, the biggest thing that I come across is that when we when we go wide in organizations and we talked to multiple teams, it's just like the alignment is insane. And having obviously been a part of corporations where when we're looking at not just our sales process the buyers journey, how consistent is that for the buyer? What type of experience did they have from St are all the way through account manager see us? What type of language are they speaking? How consistent is that? How successful is that? How is that recorded? You know? So when I think we need to flip the script and when evaluating, evaluating a bender partner to work with, you really should think about how it's going to affect your buyers journey as well. Could add that close. Yeah, so now that had more time to think. So here's some of the things, some things to think about, folks. So one is everybody gets into US and number one thing I usually hear on the list is, AH, we need a common process, a common vocabulary to drive consistency. Love it, totally agree. But, folks, is it flexible enough and customizable enough to meet you where you're at and also match your buyers journey that we just talked about with Lisa? So it's you know, one of the things that makes us effective is a fact that we really do it, you know, really try to link it to someone's buyers journey. In doing so, we allow it to really customize things, even though at the core we solve this value selling framework. It's a framework, not a script, not a pair of handcuffs, not you have to use this word with this tone at this time. Can it be adaptable enough to fit coast to coasts in Europe, in APJ and be the culturally adaptable? Another thing I want you all to think about is who's actually doing the train, because I won't tell you know, I've heard this from more than one of our clients, like hey, cars, are you act? Do you guys actually train? Because you're really good at what you do and and that's one of the differentiers we have. We all continue to sell because selling as hard and we're all a hundred percent quoted carrying reps all each one of our partners are, but we all love to deliver and work with our clients and it's that combination that makes us better. When you think about who's going to train, it's not even just about one person. I have a new client and I'm working with our partners over in Europe. He just delivered a workshop in London. It's it was facetoface, believe it or not. You know, because we're getting there. He got a standing ovation at the end and I give them all the credit in the world for it. If you did, great job. But that just goes to the caliber of the people that we have to actually deliver and engage with your salespeople. Nothing against a bunch of new hires that are right out of college, you don't want them training your top sales reps when they've never sold before. And I'll give you a couple more one on this. You know key requirement. Folks don't just focus on and what it is and being customer. What's the plan after what are we all to be trying to get to? Everybody focus on delivery, executing on the deliver these things the plan really needs to be on. When are we, say, to start seeing the success. Are we looking at leading and lagging indicators to see how we're doing? And things go wrong, priorities change, how do we adapt to those to still end up with a customer?...

That's why we get so many, I think, return customers. We're really focused on the success of the company, but even down to the individuals, you know, every one of us in our organization reaches out to hey, you got a deal, you have an opportunity, whether it's now, a month from now, our year from now, give us a call. It's something that's kind of an ain't all the partners. Last part, and this is kind of a funny one, is a person selling you this sales program methodology process. Did they actually use it in selling you? I can't tell you how many times go cross. You know one the reason speak, you're the only one that actually use your own process. I mean, we're passionate about the value selling framework because it helped us create a multimillion dollar business. Right we use it every day to attract new talent, close business deliver on that business, and you know, so is the person you're dealing with. Are they just a sales wrap trying to sell you something, or do they are they passionate about this, so they use it every day in the way they engage with you. So so now we got like seven, four, three, and now we got like seven great items, but something to think about one, and there's a couple of ones in there that I want to highlight that I think are extremely important. Number one is the bespoke element. Like are is somebody able to take their framework that is flexible enough and make it bespoke for your organization, or or is there going to be additional change required because of the way that their methodology or their approach is structure? Are you going to have to Redo all your sales stages? Are you going to have to Redo Your crm implementation? Are you going to have to change your text act? Looking for somebody who's gonna be able to come in, assess what you have and blend with it to amplify current investments? I think is a big piece of it. Making it Bespoken, customize for Your Business, for your people, spending the time to truly understand your business rather than just give you a cookie cutter approach that allows you to take take your selling motion and turn it into something that can be a differentiator and at the end of the day. The one that is my favorite, and I constantly go back to the Carlos mention, is you need to be working with the people they are actually going to do the training, because that journey through the sales process, through the customization that, at the end of the day, is going to make a huge difference in the credibility that your facilitator can achieve when working with your teams. And in a lot of cases, you know to those groups are separate and they don't use the methodology that they're bring together. Excellent. All right, so let's kind of pivot here a little bit. We've been talking about sales methodology. Let's talk about you too for a little bit. So the audience is used to hear my voice for the last two or three years. I wanted to get to know you a little bit better. So I was just hoping that you might be comfortable enough to give us just a little bit of background and what brought you to this point in your career where you were part of the value selling team lead. So what was the path to get here and what do you want the audience to know about you? Wow, how much time do we have? It was quite a ride actually, so I'll preface from the beginning. I started as an str coal calling for a company that got acquired by a sales force called radiance sex and I fell in love with Stur work, and I know that that sounds insane because it's one of the hardest jobs out there, if not the hardest job in sales, but I loved it and I was really good at it and I worked my way up across other startups into management, started running stur teams, building them from the ground up, working mostly with startups, so I was wearing a lot of hats. I've dipped my toes into enablement operations and have always, you know, been the first person put my hand up for any of those things when I was running a team of like, I don't know, fifteen people in two thousand and eighteen. And she gets the funding to bring Chad up to our office to do it in person, training with value selling and absolutely loved it. It we were we had a product of the time that was more of a nice to have, very sexy product, but not really not connecting to the need to have with buyers, and we were getting all kinds of meetings, all kinds of people wanted to see it. Our top of funnel was full, but we could not close on all that business, or not enough of it to keep going. So after value selling it was just a complete shift in mindset and are connecting to values,...

...you know, improved just, I would even say, a hundred percent and we just crushed our goals after that. So after that experience I just thought like this is the the Bee's knee, I've got to keep this in part of my life and tried to bring it into other organizations after that. Well, I was affected by COVID related layoffs two years ago and at the time I was of course, you know, jumping right back into the job market, but I also decided to start taking some contract work. So ultimately that snowballed and I started my consulting company where I worked with other startups doing exactly what I was doing for corporations. I helped them to build, optimize and train a ste our teams. And when the opportunity came up and Chad called me up and said, you know, hey, if you want to join the value selling team, by it just wrapped up a big contract. I had some time and things were going really well and I just said like it. I didn't even hesitate. I don't think I was just like yeah, how do we do it? Yeah, let's let's go out. Did you didn't hesitate at all. I think it only took a couple weeks to get side of paperwork like and honestly that was probably partly because your schedule. So yeah, and then and since, working with the team has just been incredible. I think it's like, you know everything you just said about we are. We build a lot of credibility because we use this every single day and every time we start a class, I start with, I think we all do, start with the I'm a hundred percent commission sales rep. I don't have a base cellery. If I don't sell, I don't eat. So that's how much faith I have in this process. So that always sets everyone kind of back on their heels because they can't imagine being a hundred percent commission. What? Those jobs don't exist anymore. So anyway, I just yeah, that's kind of my background, my journey, what led me hear, what keeps me focused and passionate is actually seeing the results that come out of this training and keeping keeping the relationships going. I'm a huge networker. Anybody listening to this podcast, connect with me on Linkedin and tell me that you listen to the podcast. Just don't do that, like you know, just connect and pitch. I'm going to I won't accept and and we'll have to talk about that. I'll no, I'll be offering use of training on that. But but yeah, I love networking and this allows me to stay in touch with a lot of people and really see the results that come from this methodology when it's really successfully adopted, and that drives me every day. So, Carlos, tell us the history of Carlos, because you know it's gotta be good. This is this is hard to follow on. I mean we we're I do all right. Let's see, how far back do I go? So I started out a poor Latin child in Jamaica. New York maybe too far. You're jump ahead twenty here. So look, I did not plan on being in sales and my career, at least early on, and I just happened to come across it soon after college. And you don't look like many of people out there. I just kind of, you know, work my way through it and I was just trying to get a little bit better like many of you out there, I have taken at least eleven different courses, you know. So when we talk about others, it's not like I'm just trying to sow some competitive, you know, stuff out of them. I got something valuable out of every single one that I took, so I have nothing bad to say about them. Somewhere in the middle I got to take this thing called value selling, and I liked it for a couple of more reasons. It was simple. I'm the laziest salesperson alive. I did. I never noticed that rep of the ear brag about how he filled out more forms and someone else. I never noticed that rep of the year say how they use this great tool and that made him or her sort was successful. The reality is it's about engagement and the sink called Valius thing talked about. It's not about selling folks, about allowing to the buying process. I like, okay, that I can get around. I buy every day, so I can get that one. The other part of it was also simple enough to kind of work across the team. So we talked about collaboration. How do you get someone on your team to be on board that hasn't taken the train meting? Do they have to go through this really a you...

...know, tough, you know our certification process, or could you literally talk to a partner in Mexico City and explain it to him on a back of a Napkin, which I did, and we kind of work together on an opportunity in Latin America to help drive it? So it helped me not only a dealing with direct customers, partners, and eventually I became a director and a VP and a world by VPN. Part of the reason, I thought, was I'd love to tell you it was all value selling, but it was really the ability to to with sess a deal. You know, where are we in this opportunity, and it really propelled my career. Thirteen years ago I got a little burnt out of being a world by VP and being on a plane all the time and I was going to finally do it, take some time off, and I know you going to find as hard to believe. I freaked the hell out because I thought, my God, what am I going to do it myself? I wonder starbucks is hiring and a mutual friend told me, Hey, what about, you know, doing this values on Tren you love to help people. You had a great team before. Part of the reason it was great. You really coach them up. Maybe this could be something you can do. And honestly, folks, I got into us and I thought I'll be doing this for six months to a year as a break, like it was going to be easy and I was going to love it. Two things. It's a heck of a lot harder than I ever thought it would be, probably one of the hardest jobs I've ever had in my life, and it's also a lot more rewarding than I ever thought it would be. I love helping people. If I was in independently wealthy I probably still do some of this. I mean by some of this I just wouldn't do it every single day because I'd love to have a little bit more fun. But you know, folks, it's the joy I get out of, you know, seeing that lightbulb go off in someone's mind or talking about a deal. And I just had a management check in call today and they said, Hey, we've been working on a steal for over a year and we laid the framework over it and it kind of unstuck us. And now I'm a guy, I tell you they won they're not there yet, but they have a lot more confidence and direction today then they had for the last year and it's created positive momentum and I love stories like that. So I don't have as a great a storytellpe if the last thirteen years I've gotten the work with all sorts of companies and, quite frankly, I'm very passionate about what we do because I see the results and the best thing I got is people reaching out to me years later just talking about how it's been part of I've been part of their journey and I love that part about it. So I hope I get to still do it for a few more years. You know, God lets me stay here and continue to help folks because I really love what we do. Yeah, that is one of the things about it. It is one of the hardest jobs I've ever had, for sure, but when you get those weird little text messages from somebody that's been through the class and they're like like the one I got earlier this week, you know, are you kidding me with this effing value selling stuff? It just clicked and it's amazing the difference is having in my conversations in my pipeline. You have that kind of impact on people on the light bulb goes off and there's a lot of joy that comes from that. It is a bit of a challenge and a journey. None of us have huge teams to rely on. We're all basically, you know, cobbling together, calling together a core group of people that we can rely on. But it is, I think, our passion for it and the evidence that we have seen where it has worked, not only for us as individuals, but also the teams and clients we've worked for, is a big, a big differentiator for us and he continues to fool our passion the way that we engage with our clients. So, as you're looking for those hills, methodology, sales solutions or steals foundations is optimize your revenue funnel, take all these things into account and as we move forward, I want you to do me favor and I want you to welcome Lisa and Carlos to the podcast, because you're gonna be hearing a lot more of their voices as we move forward. CARLOSLE's, I can't thank you enough for taking the time. I look forward to seeing where you'll take this as we move into the future. Is there any particular place. If somebody listening wants to get ahold of you, you want us to send them to Linkedin? You want us to send them somewhere else where? You want them to go, Lisa, how about you? Where you want them...

...to go? So my phone number is social. Yeah, honestly, you can. Linkedin is probably the best way to do it, but you can email me at least a dot snare at value sellingcom. I'm happy to talk about any opportunities you you're working on, or even if you're just stuck, or if you want to connect linkedin. I'm very active on Linkedin as well and follow me on twitter at at Lm shonnaire. But I'll be honest, it's mostly instagram pictures of my cat. They open there. So all right, Carlos, where you want us to set him to connect with you? Brother? Linkedin? All right, it's you know, it's my most active channel. It's what I used for business. So you're not going to get some pictures of my cats or dogs on there. You will see posts about, hey, here's an interesting article that I saw. So reach out to me. Linkedin's the best way to do it. You know, look forward to suggestions. As well. What would you all want to see on these podcasts? If you know we're going to tweak this a little bit, who would you like us to seeing? ME AND LIST I've been talking about, you know, who do we want to get his gasps? What topics we want to cover? We don't want to make it all about sales, just like Chad's not made it all about sales. You want to be something that it's got value fee folks, and the last thing this podcast is is a commercial for value. So it's really about, you know, feeding your brain and that means it could be about hiring. I got to get friend WHO's a CRRO's going to talk about hiring top talent and just little concepts like that. So if you got some ideas of what you'd like to see, who'd you like to see on the podcast, can reach out. We'd love to get some of those ideas. All right, excellent. Thank you both for being on the show and to the audience. I want thank you for being so loyal over the past two to three years as we've been doing this. I'm not going away all the way. You'll hear me. You know where I'm at. Find me on Linkedin. You are in great hands with Carlos and Lisa, but I would do want to thank you for the past two years, three years, doing this. You know the drill. It is a be to be red exactcom share with your friends, family co workers. Get your kids off the screen. Let him listen to something entertaining and educational. Leave us a review on itunes if you like. You here until next time. We have value selling associates, which nothing with the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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