The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mostafa El-Bermawy on The 4 Pillars of Effective SEO

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mostafa El-Bermawy is VP of Marketing at Workzone, but “SEO” probably belongs somewhere in his title, too.

Mostafa has been doing SEO for about eight years. He’s made a lot of mistakes, but those mistakes helped him eventually settle on a formula that work very well for creating sustainable SEO.

Listen in to hear Mostafa share some of his SEO formula, as well as his thoughts on marketing automation today.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Are you concerned about hitting your revenue targets this month, quarter or year? Your answer is value prime solutions, a sales training and marketing optimization company leveraging the value selling framework. visit www dot value prime solutionscom and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one, hello and welcome everyone to the b Tob Revenue Executive experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. Today we're going to tackle effective SEO, dive into the dark depths of sales and marketing automation and learn more about work zone and how they're applying the insights we cover to help us unravel what many consider a challenging topic. I have with me with Staff Elber Maaway, who, over the past eight years, is help brands such as American Express, proctor and Gamble and Ford Motors refine their digital marketing strategies. He's also a regular tech contributor for wired and BBC Arabia. He currently lives in New York and heads up marketing at work zone, which is a leading project management software start up. So, Mostafa First, I can't thank you enough for taking the time today and welcome to the show. Of course, thank you for having me. It's our pleasure. So we always like to start kind of try to upload front load some of the value for our listeners. You can't listen all the way through and I like to ask all of our guests kind of a standard question. As you look back over your career, which has been very accomplished and you've accomplished a lot and had a lot of success, was there a defining moment, if you look back, that you go back to over and over and, if so, what was that and what lessons did you take away from it? All right, honestly, I don't have a very defining moment. That is you know that I tend to Roman size and think that it's you know, it was really important in my career, but I do have like a time that I remembered, like back in two thousand and twelve when I was an American Express it's a great job and corporate job was high pay and all these good stuff and but I didn't really like the things I did there. You know, the day I was promoted, you know, I decided to leave and it was a really hard decision and I went to list known brand, you know, more like an underdog software brand. Funny enough, it was in the same building. So really, really awkward move, you know, using the same elevator and running into the same you know, just like, you know, it's a building down down Manhattan, you know, doing the same exact things, going through the same places and having the same lunch. So there was a much change there, but just changed flowers, I guess. But again, you know, that was really defining moment for me and again it's what I did there. Is just I wanted to do the things I like and the things that I'm good at, and I decided to move to another company, regardless that brand and the name and and and all...

...these career aspirations that we're feeded when we were when we were young. And that was, you know, one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life, because since then I'm actually, you know, my career trajectory and what the things I do are. You know, I'm just really happy before anything and I'm doing better in my career, and so I guess that is a defining moment. Yeah, there's a level of maturity and self awareness in that story, right, because I know a lot of people who are working at a lot of jobs like, Oh man, the benefits are just too good to pass up, but I'm miserable. All right. So that that shows a strength of character that I appreciate you sharing with our listeners. So thank you for that. So now let's do what most people probably do at the start of the podcast. Let's let's learn a little bit more about works on and your roll there. Works on is one of the, you know, the one of the first whip based project management software in the market. We started about fifteen years ago. Back in the day there was only base camped and a few other players. So yeah, we're assass company, we you know, and what I do there is that I manage everything marketing, you know, from brand PR in bound and out abound marketing to no overall sales and marking, automation and support. So along with it was a sales organizations. We're tasked with growing the company by thirty five percent this year. Excellent. That's a healthy goal. Yeah, knocking with hopefully. So let's start content marketing in SEO. You mentioned you before the show that you had had a one hundred ten percent increase in traffic in the last six months on the website, which is impressive. So what's your perspective on Seo and content marking and how did you guys achieve those results? So Seo is as I've been doing seo for for quite sometimes now, I think eight years, and I had an agency doing seo back in the day. I made a lot of mistakes in Seo and now I came to realize my formula over what I would call sustainable Seo, not just because you know it's a genius or anything, just because I've made enough misstakes to know that, you know, these are the things I shouldn't be doing and this is what you need to be focused on. So, like, I think the most important thing with Seo really is understanding the dynamics of how Seo and really googlecom as a product work. And then I feel like a lot of people that do seo and and that try tend to understand like misunderstand that and try to game Google we know, with tags and a lot of technical hacks. So, you know, the Google atcom as a product, its success is really measured by its ability to deliver what users want. You know, if I go into Googlecom and put in the search box x, I want Google to give me x and and if it doesn't, I'm going to go to bank or any other software here. So, you know, sustainable seo or how really? Google, you know, ranks these search results to give their users the best to answer. I think they rely on for values or four things. There are a lot of like video content and Seo content out there to tell you how to do seo, but I feel like they tend to confuse people and these are really the four values that I use with my team and I break things...

...down terms of, you know, tasks under you know, the four values are like. It starts with relevancy, usefulness, authority and user experience. Again, they I'm not trying to enlighten the room. These are a lot of people know these already, but I think it's important to emphasize them. So back to relevancy, you know, you have to always have those the proper keyword. Research, you know, go after high volume, high business relevancy, something that is important to your business and with low to medium competition, based on how long you've been around and how big of a brand you are, and then write a piece that exactly answers the search query of the primary keyword that you I didn't fight. And this is the the the relevancy part. And then you have the usefulness part. Is what you need to do like quality, useful, thorough piece of content that answers the users intent or search query. Again, relevancy and usefulness are becoming so important now that, you know, Google Algorithm is becoming smarter and it's smarter. Relevancy and usefulness, I feel like, are becoming the, I would say, the two most important values in Seo. After that comes authority. You know, link building is still super important, but with linked building as well as social signals. You know, we spend a lot of time promoting our content about you know a lot of people say at spend twenty percent developing your content and eighty percent promoting your content. I try to do this and you know, frankly, it's been really hard. There isn't in much enough to do in terms of eighty percent of promotion, and I think right now we're at like fifty, but we're trying to push for more promotion and list content development. We also invest in guest blogging and PR and many other activities that kind of result in lengths and social shares. And the last value is user experience, and again it's very important value because, you know, you need to make sure that your site, your site has a fast, low time, it's indexible, font is readable, it's easy to navigate. Mobile experiences you know, up to par. You know, these are basic technical things that you need to make sure they are in place and need to make sure that you have readable design. You know, lay out your content in an easy way for people to Skim through and find what the exactly want. And again it goes back to usefulness. Make sure that your piece is useful and thorough and well designed. So again, relevance, useful knit authority, user experience. This is how I do it. That's an excellence enough, as I'll be the first to admit, even though I started my career in Marketing Seo. As always and continues to me to be a little bit like black magic, I'm not a hundred percent sure exactly what the Hell I'm doing when we're working on our website and I am enough of a control freak that I don't necessarily want to pay an agency to do it. So I'm in the midst of of working through that as well. Have you found that there's a particular type of content that works better? You know, some people talk about video versus, you know, text or audio. I'm you're just curious if you've seen any any results. Are Differences in the types of content that you put out? I find text to be extremely still extremely effective, but when, you know, use the right visual aid at the right time. So sometimes text...

...was infographics does really well. Dext with video also. The does really well video. I find like Youtube. Seo Actually is really like I think youtube is is still one of the biggest search engines out there. I know it's part Google, but youtube on its own altar ton of ton of searches. I don't even remember the number. But you know, we have some videos out there on Youtube and and we do very well with these videos and we plan actually to invest more into video content and specifically on youtube videos and the youtube platform and not just we want the video to appear on Google. Excellent, excellent. So when you take all that contents put together a content marketing approach right. So how do you get it out there? I'm a fan of Jason Miller, is the director of content social media marketing at Linkedin. He's going to book out called welcome to the funnel. I'm probably a fan of that partially because he references a lot of s rock bands, which is right in my time, so probably given away my age. But he discusses concepts such as Turkey legging right or breaking larger pieces of content down and, you know, putting little blurbs on social the drive people back to the webs so to get the larger piece. Things like that. was wondering if you had a similar content marketing approach or if you come up with something differently, you find it works better of the learn more about that. Absolutely. Absolutely. This technique is actually super helpful and it goes back to the user experience and usefulness that we talked about. Is We need to make sure that we lay our content in the best way possible. And it's also useful because a lot of users do skim through to find exactly what they're looking for. And when you go after longer pieces like we write two thousand and more words, type of pieces and and it's really hard to for most people to just read the entire piece and a lot of the time they want to skim through and find, you know, get to exactly the part they're looking for, and we try to do that a lot. There's also a few other techniques you know we rely on, and one of them is actually one of my favorites, is skyscraper technique and Shrud you've heard of it is, you know, Brian Dean from back Linko. Basically, when you see we have a particular keyword, let's say someone listening slack alternatives or any keyword that is extremely competitive. You know the we find a website like cat terra or, you know, any of our competitors putting here are the top live in slack alternatives. What we do is that we, you know, we go on right here's the fifty lack of turned up and we rank higher right away because he's just you're not only more useful, but you're also more thorough and time spent on pages higher and you give you know, it didn't you users don't have to go out there and, you know, search for more options. You just give them all the options in one place and that works very well for us. There are, among other techniques. It keeps them, keeps them captive right, keeps them to have to so you get more time and more eyebs like that's what we like. Excellent. So is there an example or a story you can share of a piece of content that you guys have produced the generated specific results that you're very proud of? Well, we have. You...

...know, I'm going to talk about maybe a bottom funnel piece, because it's you know, it's content. It's not always about traffic. It's you know, it's most importantly about bottom line and how trually impacted our funnel. So bottom funnel pieces. We have a simple piece called how to choose a project management software. Again, it's not like there's nothing super special about this piece, except for that project management space is extremely complex and, as you know, a marketing operations, that erector or you know there actor of marking where a lot of the decisions of project management is actually made at that level. It's really hard to see all these options and you don't really know what is the right solution for your team. So you come to a website and you know, you always see, you know request the demo or get a trial and you go out there and you try to value evaluate what's going to work best for you. But sometimes you need guidance and we found from our side that as markers, this piece reveals intent. You may not give me the request demo form, but now I know that you're a market for a product or management software. So when you come to my website and you know, come to one of the product pages, you will be retargeted across you know, facebook, linkedin and Google with a piece called how to choose a project management software. You know now maybe you came to my website and you weren't really convinced with the content I add there. Now I'm going to get a second chance of convincing you. Not Not that alone. I'm also going to guide you through the process. Even when you choose another software and people churn a lot, they going to come back to us because we help them, we were part of the process and really help them guide them to the right software. And it's been really you know, we've only had this piece for about three months and it's actually been very effective. We've gotten a lot of conversions and a lot of opportunities in the pipeline and and we'll continue to do so excellent excellence. Okay, so we've talked SEO and content, but in order to, you know, make it all effectives, there's the the sales and marketing automation component of it. You know, you've mentioned before the show that you guys recently got through a complete marketing and sales automation overall. Kind of curious. You know, what made you feel that that was a necessary step that was going to drive the type of benefits and revenue bottom line for the business that you're looking for? This is a great question, because it's a lot of the time, you know, marketers come to a new company and they want to redesign the website. They get a new market automation software and I hate to be in that category, but we would definitely add our own reasons. Why we had to do this, and you know a few of them is, you know, we had had a lot of manual processes. You know, basic is d r sequence. That could have been done with just, you know, a click. Now it has to be done with, you know, multiple processes and and we don't have much reporting on it. There's a lot of reporting functions that you know, reporting areas of the you know, we use Zoho at the time and it wasn't it's very powerful in certain areas, but, you know, again it's a really clunky tool. You know, that's that's my view on it. It's very helpful in terms of data structure and relevancy between data. It's actually really powerful in that regard. But again, the UI is is not the ideal and maybe because it's too powerful to our teams were really complaining about, you know,...

...the user experience there. We had also lack of behavioral insight. It lacked the marketing automation component and we couldn't find the Good Marking Automation System that sinks well with was Zoho. So these were old reasons why we decided to rethink what we're doing in terms of marketing and sales automation. Okay, so you have, you know, obviously have to go through the evaluation process. I remember the last time I worked my damn just to try and replace sales force and look at everything that was out there. Right. So we have a lot of listeners who struggle with that tech landscape. So I'd love to understand your kind of what your final configuration looks like, if you don't mind sharing that and and why you made the choices you made. Well, it's extremely heart decision. I think Martin, Martin Automation and sales automations one of the hardest softwares to buy and I think one of the mistakes that I made personally in the past, and a lot of markers make because that they go to a software they say was more of a feature shopping list more than really I didn't find the needs. So I feel like what we what we did is that I worked in a blueprint, more or less, or of what are the exact pains that we have, what are our goals and how we want to bridge them with a tool that help us achieve these goals. And we're all these downs and we perioritize them, because you're not going to find the perfect tool that solves everything out there. I've used, you know, in terms of the marking automation side of his Marquetto upspot, par dot and a few other software is and in this crm side, sales force and pipe drive and, you know, even Microsoft Dynamics. So it was really like every every software has its own shortcomings and it's has its own you know strength and you need to make sure that you you you pick the software that aligns best with your strategy and and and pains. So once you understand that you need to he can go out there and was your your own feature list and and talk to, you know, sales people, and be careful because sales people would convince you with other things. Just be really clear what it what exactly you're looking for and what is needed to have or must have, what is nice to have, and don't confuse the two. Nice to have is very different than needed and must have. What I was running large sales teams. I you know, I'd have the sales force rent would come in, because I would is very vocal about my distaste for sales force, and this was a little bit before the lightning interface came up, and I would listen to the sales force REPP and I'd be like, are we talking about the same software? Because it just really does not I don't know what you're talking about, but that's not what I'm saying. Yeah, Sales Reps, and you know they had they drink it cooler, they love their products. Yeah, and I mean that's what makes him good. You know, if you can convince you. Otherwise that means he's really good at his job and you're probably bad if you're convinced, because you need to know exactly what you're looking for and you need to find the perfect alignment. You know, honestly, this is something that my you know, CEO and I rick, we talked a lot about this. Marking automation as a term is really a made up terms.

It's great marketing to to the to say Mark Automation or even sales automation, like the way we had we broke it down was like, you know, you have the landing page building tool, cms was a form and lead drouting component. You know, our landing page is word landing page building or website is built on wordpress. So a lot of time people don't need that landing page component, which hop spot and Marquett will offer, and you need two forms again and leadrouting component to sit on top of that to help you, you know, capture forms and routed. Then you have the email marketing tool component with, you know, list management and workflows, ability to run DRIPS. So that's really the marketing automation part, and then you have the crm part, which you know you need the system of records for all clients and press the prospects activities. And then you have the Dr Tools, which sits in top of crm where, you know, it really automates the reach out and conversations, meeting bookings, reporting, etc. And then, on top of all of that you need a reporting engine. And this is how we really like when out there and we started looking for tools because, you know, you have, you know, email marketing tool, for example, you have a really good to allow their drip, you know, is there really cool, but it's really specific, you know, just in the email marketing components and these tools don't need to have the perfect integration. The only integration that you need to have is make sure that that is consistently flowing from one system to another and you have a good structure of data so you have a solid reporting engine and you get consistent daddy at the end that one, and I can even be a challenge, right. I mean it is that the data consistency alone. I mean that's that's I've lost sleep over that for our business. I mean that's paid and outness. Yeah, we just you know, we're a month and a half into implementing hub spot, so that's that's that's where exactly I'm an. So that's interested. So we use UB spot as well, but interestingly enough, we don't use the marketing side of it. Yeah, we use the sales side of it. Again, I'm going to sound like a broken record, but when when we started to expand value prime, I refused to implement sales force. And what I find interesting about hub spots sales side is it blurs this line between that that type A system of record like the crm that you're used to, and it's got just enough of kind of a system of action for a sales wrap. You know, I know what they're trying to do. They're trying to get you buy the marketing stuff because it's a hell of a lot more expensive. But it's the interesting hybrid feature set, limited feature said that they've put together. I'm curious, are you using the whole thing or just the marketing side? Are Using the sales side at all? We're actually using the whole thing with the only component we're now using is the cuss landing at. The content management system, or blog, is really hosted on wordpress and we don't need much landing pages built on hop spot, but we use the whole thing and and I find the the sales are pro component really powerful. It is I think maybe the CRM component is not as mature, but the paid which is why maybe it's free the CR important. Yeah, but but you know, like the...

...the egmail integration is super seamless and very helpful and I'm sure you have your templates built up on on, you know, Gmail and and that integration was. Gmail is just amazing. And they I think they up they acquired sidekick, I think two or three years ago, and it was an amazing acquisition at their end. Yeah, can fact the email that I sent you before, the podcast that you mentioned is a help spot template. If you get that email when it opened it? Yeah, that's I did. I got the notification. It popped up my how he's looking at it right now. So I'll know be prepared now. You know I've late on their funding. It's a good all good. So when you when you look across that fat stack of tools, is there one that your team, you know, has just kind of fallen in love with and they can't live without now, one that's been provided them either more efficiencies or more impact than another? Well, in general, like in the marking space, or all the tool that we're using, or specifically to the automation piece. Any, any and all of the above. I'm just kind of curious. It's always, you know, I've spent ten years doing user experience, design and some of those types of services. So for me, as a user, that user experience, that interface is huge. So I have a tendency to find myself using those more rigorously than other things. Right. So it's kind of curious how your team has responded. Maybe it's the help spot marketing side or the other tools you know, that they just rave about and are extremely excited to to have in the arsenal. Well, I can be really biased here and it's a works out really yeah. Or I'm going to talk about the sales on mark automation a second, but I'm a remote employee and most of my team is remote and we, you know, we rely a lot on on our tool work zone to, you know, keep everything on sink. It's we don't have the luxury to, you know, walk into each other's offices and chat about things and you know, we do that wheel slack on top of work zone and you know, we need a to have the ability to manage our content, marketing. We have a little, a lot of freelances that we work with. So, being remote, we have to roll, we have to rely on a project management software and you know, making a project management software company with going, which is really good with that part. But you know, in the sales and marking automation side, now that we implemented hot spot, we we do find it, you know, essential to, you know, our day to day activities and the team is super excited about it and you know the I spent, I would say, you know, forty percent of my day on hot spot and I can imagine for sales people they are probably spending eighty or nine percent of their day. But if not old. So yeah, it's I think hop spot would be that tool again, of course, aside from work zone. But I'm biased here. Yeah, I agree, I'm I'm biased to but I do I spend a lot of my time in housepot honestly, I think part of it is probably even though the Gmail integration is so great, I think I spent a lot of time there because the usually interface is better than gmails. So it's just that excellent. So let's pivot here a little bit and talk a little bit more about work...

...zone. So you mentioned that you know significant growth targets, and so I'm curious what's is revenue? Top Line Revenue? Are We looking at margins? What's the current business objective for work zone? How are you and your team working to make sure that those are achieved? So we're a privately held company, so we keep some of these numbers a little closer to ourselves. You know, we're not a vcbacked company and we're not really going after every user out there. We're going after revenue and, as I mentioned, we have a thirty five percent gold this year and working was a closely with the sales organization to make that happen. You know, we're in terms of, you know, what part of the market we're going after, re really trying to, you know, where our software is ideal for five users and above, maybe like four hundred and eighty, like mid to large organizations. We're really like, you know, you have the project management space. You have, you know, a SNA BA scam and a lot of lightweight trelo, a lot of lightweight tools, and then you have Microsoft project which is Super Clunky and yeah, it's it's powerful, but it's super clunky and you know, you need to see how how pm feels when they make the move from, you know, Microsoft projects to our software. They're like super happy, you know. And and yeah, our software kind of fits in the middle and we tried to say that, you know, we're powerfully yet easy to use an adopt, and that's really our positioning and this is where we fit and that's where I think we're going to achieve the thirty five percent growth of this year. Excellent, excellent. Okay, soually, you've overhauled the marketing automation stuff and gotten that challenge out of the way. So what are the you know, right now we are those top of mine. Challenge is, you know, for your marketing efforts in your team that you're looking to resolve. I think the biggest challenge, not just net like now and ever, is hiring. We're trying to grow the team and just, you know, having bandwidth for hiring and fighting good talents is always a challenge, you know where we made some good progress there, but it will continue to be the challenge for for this year as we build the team. And another challenge is really like, you know, as you implement a new tool, there's a lot of adoption issues and a lot of yeah, just just have habits, are ingrains in people's head and we need to make sure that we change those habits to something more positive and sustainable. Around that will we use and and I think honestly, like you know, our team have been doing great at that. And part of it is that help spot isn't easy to use tool and maybe it's not so powerful a certain areas, but I think he's a fuse does solve that part of adoption. So I would say these are the two biggest challenges. The third one, and in you know, I think many people at the company would agree with that, is that we did achieve some amazing results in terms of traffic, as I mentioned. We have, you know, more than doubled our traffic this year, just six months. But we need to see there's alter in terms of conversions. We we've had again, as I mentioned, we have a lot of content driven, you know, opportunities and marching qualified leads in the pipeline. But we need to this...

...more into that. And and the challenge is really like, now that I have you on my blog, how can it convert you into qualified lead? And that remains to be a challenge. But again where you know, even like as I speak to you, we just had the pop up that we launched on a few of our pages and I can see the lead coming through that. So we're making some projects there and I think in Qtwo and q three, in at the q q four, we're going to have some good numbers there. Excellent, excellent. So when you look at the market today and and what's coming next, right, and trends, and some people don't like the word trends, but everything's constantly I don't say changing because it's probably more like involving. It's probably a better way to say it. But when you look at the futures in the next twelve, eighteen, twenty four months for just changes in the marketing space in general, are the things that you're extremely excited about or looking looking forward to see how they play out? I have my own, like you know, things that like read on Ai, machine learning that, but I'm gonna try to be more realistic. I'm doing it that so you like. I'll talk about maybe a little bit about automation and productive marketing. I think there's a lot to be done there. I think it's really stupid that in two thousand and seventeen, we still have to use forms. With all what we know about people out there. It's really I think there's a lot of solutions out there for that already, but I think we can capture a lot more needs if we really get over that form and wall that we put and find better ways to qualify leads. And I'm really interested in that space. I think also, even though we tend to say, you know, that as important and marked our stalk about, you know, data driving campaigns and all of that, I don't think we were what are they a yat in terms of data or data a lot of time has is not really statistically significant and does it has a lot of holes on it and it's really biased and it's not read well and not visualized well. So I feel like there's a lot to be done in terms of data and and, as you mentioned earlier, and we're talking about crm and and implementation of marketing automation, data consistency is a really, really big issue and with all these, you know, software's and tools out there, I personally use like fifteen tools and and I want to make sure that there is like some consistently consistency in terms of data, and now we add on top of all of that attribution and what type of thought really made the impact and and all of that, it becomes a lot more complicated and and I feel like attribution and really analytics is going to be also and we'll continue to be because it's really been a trend. It will continue to be the trend for the next few years. Excellent, excellent. So let's let's change direction here a little bit. I ask all of our guests kind of two standard questions towards the end of each interview. The first is simply, you know, as a VP of marketing for a first as company, as a revenue executive, that makes you a prospect for sales professionals, for people out there that want to sell you something or, you know, get into a partnership in some way. So I would love to understand, you know, in that role, what is it that sales professionals or even other marketing campaigns do that capture your intention and inspire you to engage? That's a good one. Let me thank...

...for a second. I think I actually was working on the sequence and playbook for us, so this is a perfect time times. I think what really captures my attention as a marker. I think markers are one of the hottest prospects out there. We buying more software than anyone accustomed. Message that tells me, like you know my problem and you've actually looked at my company and you have a solution for me that I is worth looking at or even having the conversation with you. That is really, really effective and gets my attention. Maybe I respond to point, maybe I don't, but it does get my attention. I think also like always emphasizing who you play with and you know the adding that credibility factor. It lother companies that you've worked with in the past. Yeah, that that are similar, because I know as a marketer's they always have my eyes on my competition and everyone does. And if you told me that, you know you did. This was my competition and it actually did well, you got my attention at least, you know, for ten fifty and and I think don't be annoying. I would say that that's really the second advice. Like the third advice is that a lot I find a lot of drs and sales rap have this like nine touches cadence, super aggressive. It's not. You know, maybe it works on one or two people the out of you know, a million or a thousand. I don't know if it works for you good, but it's really annoys me and its it builds this like wall between me and your me, me and your brain. Maybe someday I'll be interested, but it's you know I will not. I'll not reach out to you if I am, if you really like didn't, you know, respect my inbox and my time and my phone and just you know, like I would say, you are centric, reach out or or really putting your user or prospect in mind before you build that playbook or sequence is really important. Yeah, we spent a lot of time with clients when we train them, talking about the concept of respectful persistence. Right. So, so you can build your cadences, you know, however long they need to be, but don't specifically, don't be annoying. I had a rep tell me the other day that he created the sequence that he had nicknamed the crazy ex girlfriend and and essentially, but what's it? You know, it's great and it's a great title and I get the concept, but essentially what it's doing is it's designed to increase anxiety in the sense of urgency over the course of two to three weeks. But as I looked at it and kind of reviewed it, I was like, yeah, if you were using that on me, I would I would shut that down really fast just because it would get annoying. So that it's funny, but it's funny. It probably would be funny if you told me just sent me an email. Hey, I'm about to put you into a caden's called the crazy ex girlfriend. Would you like to talk before it begins? Right, that might be actually a bit better, another way to do it. Excellent. Okay, so personalization, of course, and then, you know, being respectful to extremely important aspects for you. So appreciate that. Now let's talk about the...

...last question. We call it our acceleration insight, and so what we're looking for here is if there's one thing you could tell sales, marketing or professional services people, one piece of it ice you could give them that you believe would help them beat their targets, what would it be and why? That's another really good question. Well, I think the most important thing, and and I say that because I was not good at it back in the day and it continue to try to improve that part your understanding of prospects is really a newer persona and target audience is. It's really equal to your success at communicating with them and definitely equals to success of having an effective marketing or sales campaign. So a lot of people think that that the pretty chart that they have on on who these people are, or a few googling here and there is really going to tell you enough about this persona. But think about it. You know, from your perspective, do you think a pretty chart is going to answer, you know, what most Offa thinking about and what is what are his pains? Or just a quick googling is going to do that? No, it's like you need a really thorough, quantitative and qualitative persona analysis or research and, most importantly, you need to talk to me and and and know my pains and problems and develop a piece of content and answers that, you know, develop a cadence that is around this. And so I feel like this is really important and and I would say the the most important thing that I used to struggle with, and I think is is extremely important. And when I made some improvements there, I have seen the impact that can make on, you know, conversion rate can make on overall messaging and positioning of a brand and and, as you know, effectiveness of marketing and sales. It's interesting. Back when I was doing design stuff, we always talked about user personas or customer personas and and I remember the first time I saw the difference between what's actually a buyer persona and a customer persona or user persona. They're drastically different, right and and they they require conversations with people in that role. You can't just read a bunch of stuff because you end up with a lot of assumptions and that's dangerous. So really making sure you understand people's it's a great point, an excellent point, excellent. Well, Hey, guys. That does it for today's show. I want to thank everybody for listening. Please check us out at the www rev exactcom. Please share the episode with friends, families, Co workers. Make them sit down and listen to it. More importantly, make them write a review on Itunes, because it is so valuable to us. We thank you in advance. Let's stuff. I can't thank you enough for your time today. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you, thank you. Glad to be here excellent. Again, thank you everyone for listening and let's stop the thank you again for these invaluable insights and until next time, we have value prime solutions. Wish you and your team nothing but the greatest success. Thanks Jo. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until...

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