The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mostafa El-Bermawy on The 4 Pillars of Effective SEO

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Mostafa El-Bermawy is VP of Marketing at Workzone, but “SEO” probably belongs somewhere in his title, too.

Mostafa has been doing SEO for about eight years. He’s made a lot of mistakes, but those mistakes helped him eventually settle on a formula that work very well for creating sustainable SEO.

Listen in to hear Mostafa share some of his SEO formula, as well as his thoughts on marketing automation today.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Are you concerned about hitting yourrevenue targets this month quarter or year? Your answer is value: primesolutions, a sales, training and marketing optimization companyleveraging the valueselling framework visit, www, dot value, primeSOLUTIONSCOM and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast dedicated to help with executives traintheir sales and marketing teams to optimize growth, whether you're lookingfor techniques and strategies were tools and resources. Youve come to theright place. Let's accelerate your growth in three two one hello andwelcome everyone to the B to b revenue executive experience. I'm your hostChat Sanderson today we're going to tackle effect, Ov Seo dive into thedark depths of sales and marketing automation and learn more about workone and how they're applying the insights we cover telp us on raval.What many consider a challenging topic I have with me with Stof Elber Malway,who, over the past eight years, is selt brand. Such is American Express,proctor and gamble, and Ford Motors Refine their digital marketingstrategies he's also a regular tech contributor for wired and BBC Arabia.He currently lives in New York and heads up marketing at workzone, whichis a leading project management software startup, so O stop up first. Ican't think you enough for taking the time today and welcome to the show. Ofcourse thank you for having me. Oh, it's our pleasure, so we always like tostart kind of he try to upload frontload some of the value for ourlisters. You can't listen all the way through and I like to ask all of ourguess kind of a standard question as you look back over your career, whichhas been very accomplished and you've accomplished a lot and had a lot ofsuccess. was there a defining moment if you look back that you go back to overand over and if so, what was that and what lessons did you take away from itall right? But honestly, I don't have a very defining moment. That is, you knowthat I tend to Romantiize and think that it's you know it was reallyimportant in my Caeeer, but I do have like a time that I remember like backin two thousand and twelve, when I was an American Express it's a great joband you know corporate job was high pay and all these good stuff. And but Ididn't really like the things I did there. You know the day I was promoted. Youknow I decided to leave and it was a really hard decision and I went to list known brand. You know more of likeunderdog software brand bi funny enough. It was in the same building so really really awkward move. You knowusing same elevator and running into the Sen. You know. Just like you know, it'sbuilding downtown Manhattan. You know doing the same exact things goingthrough the same places and having the same lunch. So there was at much changethere, but just changed floowers. I guess. But again you know. That wasreally the finning moment for me and again it's what I did. There is just Iwanted to do the things I like and the things that I'm good at and I decidedto move to another company regardless that brand, an the name and and allthese career aspirations that were...

...feeded when we were when we were young,and that was you know, one of the best decisions I've ever made in my life,because since then I'm actually you know my career to Jecttree and what thethings I do ore. You know, I'm just really happy before anything and I'mdoing better on my career, and so I guess that is a definding moment. Yeah,there's a level of maturity and selfawareness in that story. Rightbecause I know a lot of people who are working at a lot of jobs a like and thebenefits are just they're too good to pass up and I'm miserable all right,and so that that shows a strength of character that appreciate you shaingwith our listener. So thank you for that. So now, let's do what? What mostpeople probably do it? The start of the podcast, let's, let's learn a littlebit more about workone and your rolther Worksz on is one of the you know theone of the first wit based project management software in the market westarted about fifteen years ago. Back in the day, there was only base campand a few other players, so yeah we're assass company. We you know, and what I do there is that I manageeverything marketing. You know from brand PR and bound an albout marketingto know overall fields at marking, autovation and support. So along withwas sales organizations were were tasked with growing the company bythirty five percent this year. Excellent, that's a healthy goal: Yeah ood, hopefully, solet's talk, content, marketing andSeo you mentioned at you before the show that you and had a one hundred andten percent increase in traffic in the last six months on the website, whichis impressive. So what's your perspective on Seo and content marking,and how did you guys achieve those results so seo? Is I've been doing Seofor for quite some times now? I think eight years and IY had an agency doingseo back in the day. I made a lot of mistakes in so and now I came torealize my formula of over what I would call sustainable so not just because you know it's a geniusor anything just because I've made enough mistakes to know that you knowthese are the things the shouldn't be doing, and this is all you need to befocused on so, like. I think the most important thing with Seo really isunderstanding the dynamics of how Seo and really googlecom as a product work.And then, if you like, a lot of people that do seo and that try ten tounderstand like misunderstand that and try to game Google Y now we know withstags and a lot of technical hacks. So you know the Google Acom as a product.It's success is really measured by its ability to deliver what users want. Youknow. If I go into Googlecom and put in the search box x, I ont google to giveme x an and if it doesn't I'm going to go to bank or any other software. Herso you know sustainable seo or how really, Google, you know, ranks thesesearch results to give their users the best answer. I think they rely on fourvalues or for things there are a lot of like video content and Seo content outthere to tell you how to do seo, but I feel like they tend to confuse people,and these are really the four values that I use with my team and I breakthings down terms of you know desks...

...under you know. The four valleys arelike. I starts with relevancy usefulness, authority and userexperience again, th Y, I'm not trying to enlighten the room. These are a lotof people know these are ready, but I think it's important to emphasize themso back to relevancy. You know you have to always have you know: Th e, theproper Ouar Dresearch, you know go after high volume, high businessrelevancy, something that is important to your business and was loat to mediuncompetition based on how long you've been around and how big of a brand. Youare and then write a piece that exactly answers. The search quary of theprimary cor that you identfied- and this is e, the relevancy part- and thenyou have the usefulness part- is what you need to do like quality, useful,thorough piece of content that answers the users, intent or search quary again,relevancy and usefulness are becoming so important. Now that you know, GoogleAlgod at them is becoming smarter and smarter, relevancy and usefulness. Ifeel like Har becoming the, I would say the two most important values in Seo.After that comes authority, you know, link building is still super important,but with link building as well as social signals. You know we spend a lotof time promoting our content about you know. A lot of people say: EIGHY PSspend twenty percent developing your counting and eighty percent promotingyour content. I try to do this and you know. Frankly, it's been really hard.There isn't in enough to do in terms of eighty percent of promotion and then Ithink right now we're at like FIF fifty, but we're trying to push for morepromotion and list content. Development wealso invest in guest blogging and PRand many other activities that kind of result in linkhs and social fears andthe last value is user experience and again it's very important value becauseyou know you need to make sure that your so your site, yeah, has a fastLott time. It's indexable fund is readable. It's easy to navigate mobileexperiences. You know up the par. You know these are basic technical thingsthat you need to make sure they are in place and need to make sure that youhave realable design. You know lay out your content in an easy way for peopleto Skim through and find what they exactly want and again it goes back tousefulness, make sure that your peace is useful and thorough and well design.So I get relevance to useful Nit Authority user experience. This is howI do it. That's an excellence anotas I'll, be the first to admit, eventhough IV started. My career in marketing Seo has always, and continuesto me to be a little bit like black magic, I'm not a hundred percent sureexactly what the Hell I'm doing when we're working on our website- and I amenough of a control freak that I don't necessarily want to pay an agency to doit. So I'm in the midst of working through that as well. Have you foundthat there's a particular type of content that works better? You knowsome people talk about video versus you know, text or audio you're, justcurious if you've seen any any results or differences in the types of contentthat you put out. I find text to be extremely still extremely effective,though, but when you know we use the...

...right visual aid at the right time, sosometimes text wis infographics, does really well tect with video. Also thdoes really well video. I find like Youtube. Sio actually is really like. Ithink Youtube is still one of the biggest search engines out there G. Iknow it's part, Google, but youtube on its own alitter ton of ton of searches.I don't even remember the number, but you know we have some videos out thereon Youtube A and we do very well with these videos and we plan actually toinvest more into video content and specifically on youtube videos in thenutual platform, and not just we want the video to appear on Google excellentexcellent. So when you take all that content, you yo fut together a content,marketing approach righ. So how do you get it out there? I'm a fan of JasonMiller is the director of content, social media marketing link, dinhe'sGat, a bookout called welcome to the funnel and probably a fan of thatpartially, because he references a lot of s rock bands, which is right in mytime so probably given away my age, but he discusses concept such as Turkey,legging, right or breaking larger pieces of content down, and you knowputting little blurbs on social to drive people back to the website to getthe larger piece things like. That was wondering if you had a similar content,marketing approach or if you come up with something different Ly. You findthat works better love to to learn more about that. An absolutely absolutelythis technique is actually super helpful and it goes back to the user,experience and usefulness that we talked about is we need to make surethat we lay our content in the best way possible, and it's also useful, becausea lot of musers do skim through to find exactly what they're looking for andwhen you go after longer pieces like we write, two thousand and more words typeof pieces n and it's really hard to for most people to just read the entirepiece and a lot of the time they want to skim through and find. You know, gette exactly the part they're looking for, and we try to do that. A lot there'salso a few other techniques that you know we ly on, and one of them isectually. One of my favorites is skyscreaper technique and sure Youh'veheard of it is, you know Brian Dn, from BACKLINCO. Basically, when you see wehave a particular keyword, let's say someone listing slack alternatives orany keyword that is extremely competitive. You know that we find awebsite like capttera or you know any bar compettors, putting here the topliving slack alternatives. What we do is that we, you know we go on right.Here's, the fifty likeotur and we rank higher right away becauseyou is just you're not only more useful, but youals more thorough and time spenton pages higher and you GIV. You know he didn't users don't have to go outthere and you know search for more options. You just give them old optionsin one place and that works very well for US theyre among other techniques.It keeps them keeps them captive. Right gives them to have to so you get moretime more and more. I wel like that's what we like excellent. So is there an example or astore? You can share him a piece of content that you guys have producedthat Jo generated specific results that you're very proud of. Well, we have,you know I'm going to talk about, maybe...

...a bottom funnel piece, because it's youknow it's content, it's not always about traffic. It's you know, it's mostimportantly, about bottom line and how treally impacted our funnel so bottomfunnel pieces. We have a simple piece called how to choose the productmanagement software. Again, it's not like there's nothing superspecial atthis piece, except for that project management. Space is extremely complexand, as you know, a marking operations, the Irector or you know, diractor ofmarking, where a lot of the decisions of project management is actually madeat that level. It's really hard to see all these options and you don't reallyknow what is the right solution for your team. So you come to a website,and you know you always see you know, requested themo or get a trial and yougo out there and you try to vout evaluate, what's going to work best foryou, but sometimes you need uidanse and we found from our side as marters. Thispiece reveals intent. You may not give me the request them a foreg, but now Iknow that you're a market for PROJIC management software. So when you cometo my website- and you know, come to one of the product pages, you will beretargeted across. You know facebook, linkton and Google, with a piece calledhew to choose a PRODEC management software. You know now, maybe you cameto my website and you weren't really convinced with the contaniad there. NowI'm going to get a second chance of convincing you, not not that alone, I'malso going to guide you through the process. Even when you choose anothersoftware and people churn a lot they're going to come back to us because wehelp them. We were part of the process and really help them guide them to theright software, and it's been really. You know. We've only had this piece forabout three months and it's actually been very effective. We've goten a lotof conversions and a lot of opportunities in the pieline and andwill continue to do so, excellenl Thankso, so, okay, so we've talked Seoand content, but in order to you know make it all effective. There's e thesales of marketing automation component of it. You know you'd mentioned beforethe show that you guys recently gon to a complete marketing and salesautomation, overaul, I'm kind of curious. You know what made you feelthat that was a necessary step that was going to drive the type of benefits andrather yo bottom line for the business that you were looking for. This is agreat question because it's a lot of the time you know marketers come to anew company and Hoy want to redesign the website. They get a new market, automation softwareand I hate the in that category, but we would definitely had our own reasonswhy we hade to do this, and you know a few of them is you know we had had alot of manual procesies, you know basic is Dr sequence. That could have beendone with just you know, a click. Now it has to be done with you know,multiple procesies and- and we don't have much reporting on it. There's alot of reporting functions that you know, reporting areas of the you knowwe used Jova at the time and it wasn't it's very powerful in certain areas,but you know again it's a really clunky tool. You know, that's that's my viewon it. It's very helpful in terms of data structure and relevancy betweenTATA. It's actually really partful of that regard. But again that Oui is isnot the ideal and maybe because it's to...

...powerful to our teams were reallycomplaining about. You know the user experience there. We had als lack ofbehavior of insight, it lacked the marching automation component and wecouldn't find he good Markit Automation System that sinks well with with zoo.So these were all reasons why we decided to rethink what we're doing in terms ofmarking and Tal Domination. Okay, so Yeu have, you know, obviously have togo through the evaluation process. I remember the last time I worked myDamtus to try and replace sales force. I lookd at ateverything that was outthere right yeah. We have a lot of listners who struggle with that tech,landscape. So I'd love to understand you know kind of what your finalconfiguration looks like if you don't mind, sharing that and why you made thechoices you made. Well, it's extremely hard decision. Ithink martal Markin, automation and sales automations were of the hardestsoftwares to buy, and I think one of the mistakes that I made personally inthe past and and a lot of Marters Maye, because that they go to a software nDSA was more of a feature shopping list. More than really, I didn't find theneeds, so I feel like what what we did is that I worked in a blueprint more orless wore of what are the exact things that we have, what are our goals andhow we want to bridge them with a tool that help us achieve these goals andwe're all these downs and we carioritize them because you're notgoing to find the perfect rool that solves everything out there. I've used, you know, terms of theMartin automation, side of use, Marcuetto hop, spot pardot and a fewother softwares N in this crmside seals force and pipe drive, and you know evenMikcrsof Dynamics, so was really like every every softwarehas its own shortcomings and it have its own. You know strength, and youneed to make sure that you you. You pick the software that aligns best withyour strategy and pains. So once you understand that you need, you can goout there and with y your own feature list nd and talk to you, know salespeople and be careful because hills people would convince you, as otherthings, just be really clear what it's, what exactly you're looking for andwhat is needed to have or must have what is nice to have and don't confuseit to nice to have it's very different than needed and must have yeah what Iwas running. Large sales teams, you know I'd, have the sales force retwould come in, because I was very vocal about my distaste for sales force, andthis was a little bit before the lightning interface came up and I wouldlisten to the saleswors wrep and I'd be like ow. Are we talking about the samesoftware because it just really does not. I don't know what you're talkingabout, but that's not what I'm saying Sales Reskan, you know Y, they drink acooler, they love their products yeah and they I mean that's what makes himgood you know if he can convince you. Otherwise that means he's really goodat his job and you're, probably bad if you're convinced, because you need toknow exactly what you're looking for and you need to find the perfectalignment. You know, honestly. This is something that my you know co and Irick. We talk a lot about this marking. Automation as a term is really a madeup term.

It's a great mark thing to toh to sayMart Otomation or even seals. Automation like the way we had we brokeit down was like you know, you have the landing page building tool cms with aform, an and leads rought ind component. You know our landing pages word. Folending, page building or website is built on word press. So a lot of time.People don't need that Landing Page component which heps Pota market willoffer, and you need the forms again and leade Yo out ond component sit on topof that. To help you, you know, capture, forms and routit. Then you have thatemail, marting tool component with you know, list management and workflowsability to run drifts. So that's really the marking, automation part, and thenyou have the crmpart, which you know you need the system of records for allclients, AMD pressive, with prospects activities. And then you have the SDRtools which sits in top of Urm, where you know it really automates to reachout and conversations meeting bookings, reporting, etcea and then, on top ofall of that, you need the reporting engine, and this is how we really likewent out there and we started looking for tools, because you know you haveyou know: email, marting pool. For example, you have a really good tillout there drift you know is really cool, but it's really specific. You know justin the email, Martin components and these tools don't need to have theperfect integration. The only integrition that you need to have ismake sure that data is consistently flowing from one system to another andyou have a good structure of Thata, so you have a solid reporting engine andyou get consistent daddy at the end that I coul even be a challenge. RightI mean it. Is that Thatsabi, the Danic consistency alone. I meanthat's that I've lost sleep over that for our business. I mean that's pain. Ibotis yeah, we just you know we're a month and a half into implementing hobspot. So that's that's! That's where exactly I'm a so that's interestedi! We, U have spotas well, but interesting enough. We don't use the marketing side of it yeah.We use the sales side of it again, I'm going to sound like a broken record,but when, when we started to expand value, prime, I refused to inflamentsales force and what I find interesting about hub spots saside. Is it blursthis line between that that type of system of record, like the crm thatyou're used to, and it's got just enough of kind of a system of actionfor a sales wrap? You know, I know what they're trying to do they're trying toget you to buy the marketing stuff because it's a hell, a lot moreexpensive, but it's a interesting, hybrid feature set. LIMIITED fuaturesaid that they've put together. I'm curious: Are you using the whole thingor just the marketing site are using the saleside at all? We're actuallyusing the whole thing with the only component. We're not using is th. CusIs landing the content management system. Our blog is really hosted onword press and would 'm need much landing pages built on Hob spot, but weuse the whole thing and- and I find th the saless pro component- reallypowerful. It is gre, I think maybe this yrm component is not as mature but thepaid, which is why maybe it's free this...

...year- inportan IHT yeah but GT. But youknow like the the agmail integration is super seamless and very helpful D, andI'm sure you have your templets built up on on. You know, Gmail and thatintegration was gemail is just amazing and the I think the the acquiresidekick I think two or three years ago, and it was an amazing acquisition atther end yeah ce that the email that I sent you before, the podcast that youmentioned is it helps fove templot you get that email when it opened ityeah I did. I got. I got Tha ovocation and popped up. My he's looking at itright now, so I'll know be prepared. N. Now you know ia late under funding good. So when you, when you look acrossthat that stack of tools, is there one that your team, you know as s just kindof fallen in love with and they can't live without now, one that's teyprovided them Eithev, more efficiencies or more impact than another, well ingeneral, like in the marking, space or all the tool that were using orspecifically to the automation piece any any and all of the above, I'm justkind of curious. It's always you know. I've spent ten years, doing userexperience, design and some o those types of services. So for me, as a user that that user experience,that interface is huge, so I have a tendency to find myself using thosemore rigorously than other things right. So iust kind of curious how your teamhas responded, maybe it's to the hup spot, markting side or ther other tools.You know that they just rave about and are extremely excited to to have in thearsenal. Well, I can be really biased here and and say, works out really yeah. I'm Gonto talk about this hals on MarkCotomation, a second but I'm a remote employee and most of my teams areoutin.We, you know Weli a lot on our tools. Work. One to you know, keep everythingon sink. It's we don't have the luxury to. You know, walk into each other'soffices and chat about things, and you know do hat we slack and top of workzone, and you know we need a to have tha ability to manage our contenmarkting. We have also a lot of freelances that we work with so beingremote. We have to ro, we have to rely on a project management software andyou know ing a Product Management Software Company tone which is really good with thatpart. But you know in the sales o Martan automation side now that weimplemented hob spot w. We do find that you know the sential to you know o dayto tday activities and the team is super excited about it and you knowlike the I spent I would say you know forty percent of my day on hop spot andI can imagine for sales, people theyare, probably spending eighty or ninetpercent of the Tey, but if not Oll so yeah, it's I think, holp spot would bethat tool again, of course, aside from workzone, but I'm biased here yeah. Iagree, I'm I'm biased too, but I do. I spend a lot of my time in of spothonestly, I think part of its probably, even though the gemail integration isso great. I think I spend a lot of time there, because the use interface isbetter than GMALS. So it's just with that excellent. So, let's pay et here alittle bit talk a little bit more about...

...work soun. So you mentioned that youknow significant growth targets and Somei'm curious what' is revenue. YoukN W topline revenue. Are We looking at margins? What's the current businessobjective for work zone? How are you and your team working to make sure thatthose are achieved so we're a privately held company? So we keep some of thesenumbers little closer to ourselves. You kno we're not a VC back company andwe're not really going after every user out there we're going after revenue,and as I mentioned, we have a thirty five percent goal this year and t enworking was closely with a sales Organizatian to make that happen. Youknow we're in terms of you know what part of the market were going afterwe'e really trying to you know. Wer Outer Software is ideal for five usersand above maybe like Torty eigh like mid two large organizations were rely.Like you know, you have the project management space, you have. You know a Sana Base Cam and a lot oflike weight, Trello a lot of light, light weight tools, and then you haveMicrosoft project, which is Super Clunky, O yeah sit's powerful. But it'ssuper clunky and you know you need to see how how PM feels wh nwhen they make the move from. You know Microsoft projects to our softwaretheyre like super happy, you know and and yeah our software kind of fits inthe middle, and we try to say that you know we're powerful, yet easy to useand adopt and that's really all positioning- and this is where we fitand that's where I think we're going to achieve the thirty five percent growththis year: actallen, Elen, okay, so You'e, you've, overauled the marketingautomation, stuff and and got that challenge out of the way. So what other?You know right now? What are those top F mine challenges? You know for yourmarketing efforts and your team that you're looking to resolve. I think thebiggest challenge not just nat like now and ever is hiring we're trying to growthe team, and just you know, having bent with for hiring the firing goodtalents is always a challenge. You know where we made some good prodress there,but itil continues to be the challenge fo for this year as we build the teamand another challenge is really like. You know, as you implement te Youtol,there's a lot of adoption issues and a lot of yeah. I just just have habits or ingrains in people's head, and we need to make sure that we change those habitsto something more positive and sustainable around. Thatwill we use in, and I think honestly, like you know, our team have been doinggreat at that and part of it is that hous spot isn'td easy to use tool, andmaybe it's not so powerful, et terin areas, but I think es a Fus does solvethat part of adoption. So I would say these are the two biggest challenges,the third one, and you know I think many people at the company. What agreewith that is that we did achieve some amazing results in terms of traffic. AsI mentioned, we have you know more than doubled our traffic this year when justsix months, but we need to see there'sults in terms of conversions.We've had again. As I mentioned, we have a lot of content driven. You knowopportunities and marching qualified...

...leads in the Pieline, but we nou tofthis more into that and and the challenge really like now that I haveyou on my blog, how can it convert you into qualified lead and that remains to be a challenge, butagain, were you know w even like, as I speak to you, we just had the popupthat we launched on a few of our pages, and I can see the lead coming throughthat so we're making some progress there and I think in q to and q t Ganat q thre nd q for Wee going to have some good numbers there. Excellentexcellent. So when you look at the market today and and what's coming nextright, an then the trends at some people, don't like the word trends, butI everything's constantly, I don't say changing because it's probably morelike envolving t s probably a better way to say it, but when you look at thefuture, so the next twelve eighteen, twenty four months for you know justchanges in the marketing space in general are the things that you'reextremely excited about are looking to looking forward to see how they playout. I have my own, like you know things that, like tread on Ai MachineLearningbut, I'm going to try to be morerealistic, I'm diing bat. So you like I'll talk about maybe a little bitabout automation and prodective markthing. I think there's a lot to bedone there. I think it's really stupid that in two thousand and seventeen westill have to use forms with all what we know about people out there. It'sreally, I think, there's a lot of solutions out there for that already,but I think we can capture a lot more needs if we we get over, that form andWoll that we put and well find better ways to qualify, leagds an and I'mreally interested in that O space. I think also, even though we tend to sayyou know that as important and marketers talk about, you know, datadriving campaigns, and all of that I don't think we were what Dateye at interms of data or data. A lot of the Tine has is not really statisticallysignificant and does it has a lot of holes on it end it's really biased andit's not read well and not visualized. Well, so I feel like there's a lot tobe done in terms of data and, as you mentioned earlier, and we're talkingabout crm and an implementationl market automation, that a consistency is areally really big issue and wish all these. You know softwares and tools outthere. I personally use like fifteen tools, and I want to make sure thatthere's, like some consistentyn consistency in terms of data and now weadd, in top of all of that attribution and what type of Tuch really made theimpact and and all of that it becomes a lot more complicated and- and I feellike attribution and really analytics- is going to be also and will continueto be because it's really been at a trend. It will continue to be the trendfor for the next few years, excellent excellent. So, let's, let's ChangeDirection here a little bit. I ask all of our guests kind of two standardquestions towards the end of each interview. The first is simply, youknow as a vpof marketing for a for ascess company as a revenue executive.That makes you a prospect for sales professionals for people out there thatwant to sell you something or you know, get into a partnership in some way. SoI would love to understand. You know afin that role. What is it that salesprofessionals or even other marketing campaigns? Do They capture yourintention and Inspiyou to engage?...

That's a good one. Let me thank for asecond. I think I actually was workig on the sequence and playbook fora, sothis is a perfect time time. I think what really captures myattention as a marker- and I think markers are one of the hottestprospects out there. We buy more soft doore than anyon right, a custommessage that tells me, like you know my problem and you've actually looked atmy company and you have a solution for me that I is worth looking at or evenhaving the conversation with you. That is really really effective and gets myattention. Maybe I respond to point. Maybe I don't but think that be a Ietton. I think that also like always emphasizing who you play with, and youknow the adding that credibility factor: Alot ofthe companies that you've workedwith in the past, yea that that are similar, because you know as a markers,they always have my eyes on my competition and everyone does, and ifyou told me that you know you did this was my competition and actually didwell. You got my attention. At least you know for Tene and I think don't be annoying, I wouldsay that that's really the second I'Dbi, like the third advice, is that a lot Ifind a lot of Iste, RS and sales rap. Have this like nine touches? CADENCEsuper aggressive? It's not you know. Maybe it works on one or two people,the out of you know a million or thousand don't if it'sworks for you good, but it really annoys me and it builds this like wall between me and your M me and yourbrain bayby some day I'll be interested, but it's you know I will not ill notreach out to you. If I am, if you really like didn't, you know,respect might and box, and my time and my phone and just you know like I would say, usercentric reach out or or really putting your user or prospect in mind beforeyou build that playbook or sequence is really important. Yeah. We spend a lotof time with plients when we train him talking about the concept of respectfulpersistence right. So so you can build your cadences. You know, however longthey need to be, but don't specifically don't be annoying. I had a rep tell methe other day that he created the sequence that he had nicknamed thecrazy ex girlfriend and and essentially t wants it. You knowit's great and it's a great title, an I get the concept, but essentially whatit's doing is it's designed to increase anxiety in the sense of urgency overthe course of two to three weeks, but as I looked at it and kind of reviewedit as like yeah, if you were using that on me, I would I would shut that downreally fast just because it would get annoyed so tha its I, but I its funny. It probably would be funny. If you toldme just sent me an email, hey, I'm about to put you into a cadence calledthe crazy ex girlfriend. Would you like to talk before it begins right? Thatmight be actually a good ten oother way to do it?Excellent, okay, so personalization, of course, and then you know beingrespectful to extremely important aspects for you so appreciate that now,let's talk about the last question, we...

...call it our acceleration insight and sowhat we're? Looking for Hereis there's one thing you could tell salesmarketing or professional services people, one piece of advice: You couldgive them that you believe would help them beat their targets. What would itbe and why that's an another really good question? Well, I think the mostimportant thing- and I say that because I was not good at it back in the dayand continue to try to improve that part. You understanding of prospects isreally Wyn, anew, persoon and target audience. Is it's really equals yoursuccess at communicating with them and definitely equals the success of havingan effective marking or saleds campaign? So a lot of people think that that thepretty chart that they have on who these people are or a Fel googling here,and there is really going to tell you enough about this persona but thinkabout it. You know from your perspective, do you think a pretty chart is going to answer. Youknow what me stuff I thinking about and what is what are his pains or just aquick googling is Goan a do that? No it's like you need a really thoroughquantitative, andqualitative persona, analysis or research and, mostimportantly, you need to talk to me and and know my pains and problems anddevelop a piece of content and answers that you know develop a cadense that isaround is, and so I feel like this is really important and- and I would saythat the most important thing that I use to struggle with, and I think is,is extremely important and when I made some improvement there h've seen theimpact that can beyave on you know. CONVERSIONRA can make on overallmessaging and positioning OBE, Brandon and, and just you know, effectivenessof markting and sales. It's interesting, you know back when I was doing designstuff. We always talked about user personas or customer Persontae, an D,and I remember the first time I saw the differencebetween what's actually a Bir per son and a customer, percenor user personnerthey're drastically different right and they require conversations with peoplein that role. You can't just read a bunch of stuff, because you end up witha lot of assumptions and that's dangerous, so really Makin sure youunderstand people. That's that's a great point, an excellent point,excellent! Well, Hey guys! That does it for today's show. I want to thankeverybody for listening an please check us out at the WWWBB REV ezccom. Pleaseshare the episode with friends. Families Coworkers make them sit downand listen to it. More importantly, make Reada review on itunes because itis so valuable to us. We will thank you in advance, but to I can't think ouenough for your time today is wit, an absolute pleasure to have you on theshow. Thank you. Thank you glad to be here. axcallent again, thank you,everyone for listening and let' stopthat. Thank you again for theseinvaluable insights and until next time we h value. Prime Solutions Wish youand your team nothing, but the greatest success thanks, Jo you've been listening to the btobrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in Itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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