The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 5 years ago

Mark Shank on What “Digital Transformation” Really Means Today


Digital transformation isn’t Mark Shank’s favorite term.

Yet, he recognizes that it’s widely used, and so he uses the term to speak the language of his clients. He takes the often narrow definition of digital transformation—implementing a new system—and teaches people to work outward from that understanding to identify how everyone involved in transformation is affected.

Listen in to hear Mark share tips for staying ahead of the curve in transformation based on his work with KPMG.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Are you concerned about hitting your revenue targets this month, quarter or year? Your answer is value prime solutions, a sales training and marketing optimization company leveraging the value selling framework. visit www dot value prime solutionscom and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. For those of you that have to jump early or aren't able to listen to the entire podcast, that will we posted it be tob REV exactcom. Of course, you can always track it down in itunes or using stitcher or whatever your favorite podcast player might be. Recommend checking out not only this interview in the related blog post, but also other interviews that we have done today. With us we have mark Shank, who is a principle at KPMG. He runs our experience design and Engineering Group. We've asked them to come on today to talk a little bit about digital transformation, how trends are affecting, you know, the consulting practice, what professional services individuals need to do to stay ahead of the game and to be kind of top of their field. Normally, of course, we wanted to start with a background question, but I want to change it up a little bit today and and start by first thanking mark for taking the time to be here. I understand he's extremely busy, but would like to start with a different type of question to try and front load some value for our listeners. So, Mark, when you think back about, you know, kind of the course of your career and you look back at those moments, those defining moments that you've experienced to get to this point, what lesson you know, what was the major defining moment and what lesson or insights did you take away from it? Wow, defining moment. You know, I don't think that you that you realize those things at the time. It's only upon reflection, maybe years later at least. I was a case for me. You know, I think defining moment for me it was kind of a simple one really. I was sitting in a room full of like minded software engineers, with the the owner of our small company, who still wrote code every day. And, you know, we were doing that by the hour and getting paid for it. And we needed to do recruiting because we had some talented people and customers were asking for more people with with some old level of talent, and we were all too busy to do recruiting and know, and and no one wanted to do it, and so I kind of made nobody stood up and said, Hey, let me go find New People. Yeah, you know, it's not like we had a great comprehensive recruiting ever read. I mean we had some people kind of come in via referral and we put up some job ads and things. You know, this was like the age of monster but but it was really who's going to manage this process right? Who was going to make sure that they talked to, if you who's going to determine who would be the appropriate people for them to talk to and get them, to shepherd them through the process and there's answer their questions right, it takes a lot of hours to, you know, get through the axe murder screening right. You know, may make sure this person isn't a waste of everyone's time and and I was busy like everybody else. But you know, I just kind of I volunteered to do it. No one else was looking to do it and I was asked, you know, by our president or whatever at the time. You asked you, so why do you want to do this thing nobody else wants to do and I said well, I like the idea of having a higher degree of efficacy over over the group of people at our work with. Then he said good enough. and kind of ever since that point, as we grew and things changed, I just kind of take I just organically appropriated more and more roles and jobs and things to help, you know, run or organization.

And I never did it from the perspective of trying to acquire management responsibility. I wasn't doing it from a from a wasn't any kind of conscious career move or anything like that. It was just me doing something to help or group and you know, and I was good at a shore, but you know, I was just just trying to help the group and just trying to get us to grow and be more successful. So kind of a focus on doing something that it's going to benefit everybody, not just yourself. Yeah, yeah, I mean we were. We were really tight group and it was a lot of fun. It was benefiting myself to I didn't want that to be ruined. I felt like I could help bring in other people that would be just as talented and keep that that that density of talent the same while also the group was getting bigger. That part it scared me that we would lose that with the group because we hired, and so I felt more comfortable taking kind of more direct control, control of that. EXOLUTE, excellent. Okay, so now let's go kind of the standard question. How did you get started in professional services and end up KPMG? I'm not sure. I mean got to be a safe for work. Got To be safe for work. I never realized I was in professional services until I got to keep him G. Yeah, I guess the time of series we had questionable. This is kind of like the second job I've ever had. Right. So, so I you know, I did my Undergrad and computer science and I wasn't in professionals, even though I was. I was hired by a government consulting company that, you know, one that end up getting required by a much larger one and so they were billing for my time by the hour, but I didn't think of myself that way. I was I was a software engineer. I talked like an engineer, I walk like an engineer and I worked with engineers and I was very, obviously, very junior, twenty two year old kid, and so you know that that was my focus. And so I focused on that craft and even when we went to synergy, you know, to our detriment, I guess you know, later on, I remained focused on that craft and in designers and developers and it was really until that we got acquired by keeping G and I came to keeping g that I think I learned what professional services really were. So how would you look it looks a little further. How did you define that? Mean you and I've had conversations about this before, about what it takes to really be a truly effective consultant, dance specialist. But I mean, what have you learned that you got to keep gets to help broaden that definition of professional services? So but bunch of different things. kind of hard to think we're to start, I think you know, one of the biggest things that that were that we're looking at is in this is a change in the market place as much as a change in us, at least in the in the quote unquote digital space. And you know, you know I don't like that word, but the it used to be that you could sell skills and skills kind of sell themselves. And so when someone says, Hey, I need I need some skills, and you say sure, here's some skills, and they say, oh, those look good and and you keep doing work in that in that sales model works when there's when those skills are pretty scarce and and when there's, you know, more demand than supply. As things start to equal out and and as the market starts to come into equilibrium, you really do have to focus more on a solution oriented sale and being able to craft a solution, particularly one that that requires multiple kinds of professional services, that is presented to a customer back as a holistic solution to a high level problem that they have. You know, I think that that's the mark of a really good professional services organization and any really good person in practices professional services that that they can go in pull those different things together, adopts the perspective of their customer and present to them in such way that they understand how this kind of trust her their high...

...level problem and then and then go and actually deliver it. Right. So, I mean back in the days we're synergy and, for those that aren't aware, synergy was a digital agency. I know you hate that word, but now it was. It was appropriate back then. It's a little over used now. Right. It was very it was very blue ocean right back then, and I remember getting the phone calls like, Hey, I need a designer or I need a developer who specializes an X. right. And as we saw that market change, it became more of they needed a solution that required multiple types of specialists, right. And that's a little bit of a mental shift and I think that's kind of talking about, right, is that ability to see it in a more holistic way and put the piece of the puddle together. Yeah, it was. It was even a little more insidious than than that. I think. You know, we could pick those out pretty well because even when we were selling just skills, we realized, if we're just selling a designer, just selling a Dev that we would you know, that that them were in a rate battle, right. And so even when we kind of position to them that, hey, let us build this software product for you. And even when we got to the point that we could get out in the field and do customer research and show them, okay, here's your journey map, here your personas and your segmentation and behavior change framework and all these other things, there were still so much of that that we missed and there were still so much of our success was predicated on the ability of the client to actually manage and deliver in so even when we would go in there and build a software product for them, if it went down burning flames, it wasn't because we were it wasn't because we were bad and it and when we had great successes, it wasn't because we were uniquely amazing. It was really kind of dependent on the customers ability to manage software development life cycle, on to actually, you know, to really own all those parts of that. And so when we were most successful, and you know kind of you know, going back those early days, was really when we were working with other software companies. We're working with midlevel exacts that understood the software development process and understood so many of those concepts and we really struggled when we worked with, you know, startups or our lines of business that we're trying to circumvent it and didn't have any kind of concept or infrastructure ability to they didn't understand the assumptions, they didn't understand the risks. We weren't as good at managing them, whereas, like now, I keep engining in a large organization, we have the ability to bring enough services to the table to kind of mitigate the whole thing. And you know, we're large enough and we were successful enough that I don't feel the pressure that I sought at a small organization to take risks. Right. You know, I can walk away from a deal. I can. I can say, look, this is what it's going to really take. Yeah, your boutique fender may be telling you they can do it for twenty percent of the cost, but they're ignoring all these other things and you don't have the ability to manage those yourself. So you're going to have a real problem if you actually try and take this one. We work with those customers in the beginning. There's a huge education component, right, it was digital was so new. The word made sense to then. And Yeah, it was so new. They're like, Oh wow, you guys know what this is, but now you see over there, you know the course. Here's the big buzzword now is digital transformation, and I remember before moving into doing what I'm doing now, we spent a lot of time on that education component and it got more difficult. Thank you apple. Once design, the concept of design, became so prevalent that everybody kind of thought they knew what it meant and knew what it would impact, you know, their organizations. That's actually really good point. I had hadn't heard it phrase that way, that that apple actually made people feel like they new design, as opposed to before we got the opportunity to like maybe was like a clean slate, definitely like the Morte, like the Marines teaching someone how to shoot and never shot before. They don't have to break any bad habits, right, you know. And Yeah, we're going into customers...

...and now they think like, but my iphone, but my iphone. I've seen the apple commercial, I know what is is, I know what it means, I know what it and then you get you know, then there was that transition to experience. So it became all about the holistic experience, right, and you've got organizations that are still struggling with it and one of the big words that we still see socials of all times digital transformation. So I'm curious, based on your evolution through the digital space and now spending time to keepg how are you guys or how are you defining digital transformation for your clients? Well, you have to react to the market, right, you have to, you know, do if your job is to service businesses in the business world, then you know you have to understand their language and speak their language. And so certainly digital transformation is something out there that we that we talked about, I think. But ultimately, to quote another former CO worker of ours, Mike, Mike Wolf, digitals just become synonymous with the word modern and so when you say digital transformation, you're really just talking about transformation in the year two thousand and seventeen and the year two thousand and sixteen and fifteen. So that matter. But the but the point is is that you know, you're just talking about transformation. You know transformation is really wholesale organizational change of technology, people, process. And the part that's kind of often ignored in that in technology, people in process, which everybodyill say is is as also the physical spaces those can be worked, you know, the customer spaces, people always think of and they think about that, but they don't think as much about, you know, the work spaces. That's starting to change now and and we're houses and other things where automation or coming into play and starting to look at augmented reality and other Internet of things, sensors and other things that start to change those physical spaces. But it's not just installing a new system. And although it often gets that's probably the most frequent implementation of what people refer to as digital transformation. Is Okay, cool, well, you know, we implemented in because this is public, I won't pick on any particular better, but we implemented. You know, we implemented said vendors system and therefore we've done digital transformation. And so, you know, it's actually really looking at how that so if you're going to take that as your core, you know that that's your impetus for the transformation, then it's also looking at, you know, what kind of what's happening to your people of all types as a result. You know, how's that impact in their jobs? Will kind of change? Do you want to go through? And also we're kind of the experience gaps. You know, if you're if you've identified, you know, the some of the outcomes that you want to achieve from this implementation and then you know, okay, well, what's actually going to really get us there? Are are their experience gaps? are their inner crations, or are some point solutions that would really, you know, really kind of fill on the gaps for us and help us actually get to that complete business case? You know, the keeping G does a lot of industry research. One of the things that came out the other day was, you know, fifty three percent of the averages, fifty three percent of the business case is realized for, you know, these large implementations, and so you know that you're expecting kind of to get half of what you said you were going to get. That got you all that budget, and so you know, how can you actually close that gap? And I get there, get get the other half? And so it's like look, you know you made this business case, but our research dolls us that you're probably going to get about half of it. So where do you get the other half and do you find it more difficult with smaller order, I'll say, let's say small to medium sized businesses, for them to really wrap their heads around the totality of a transformation or is it were difficult with larger organizations because there's more players like that understanding of you really are talking about organizational change and there's a digital component to it. So they may not understand organization will change. They probably think they understand digital chances are they don't. And so putting that all together and understanding how that affects the totality of the organization and the experiences that they deliver are you. Do you see a stratification of companies that adapt to... easier? You know, it's interesting. It's a bit of a dichotomy because the smaller organizations have a greater ability to actually successfully pulled off transformation. The larger organizations have executives and layers of executives that are kind of high up enough and abstracted away enough that they can see the problems and they can see the industry trends and so they have a greater ambition. So I would say the smaller medium ones, it's hard to get them to really want to. They have the ability but not the will, and the very large companies have the will but struggle with the ability and they struggle with the ability because of all you, like you just said, all the players and the fiefdoms in the silos and and the impacts that are inevitably fell and whereas the smaller, small to medium, you know, they still have executives that are kind of living closer to the line of business and they're following those dollars and a large way they fall into the trap of not valuing employee experience like they value customer experience. And so when they just view all of these everything that the customer isn't touching is just a cost center, is just the thing that unnecessary evil, then then it plays drives this mindset are around, you know, reducing cost and not seeing these things as their potential to add value, potential to drive the top line. So does that become another facet for, you know, the ideal professional services are consultant candidates. So they not they need to be a specialist in some type of skill, I. Design, strategy, organization change whenever they not only need to understand how business works, right, so some level of business document, but in some ways it sounds like they also need to be a bit of a diplomat to be able to communicate from, you know, top level exacts down to those are there in the field trying to implement these changes. Do you find your teams trying to become, you know, play that that role of diplomat and making things, you know, smooth across the efforts? Yeah, I think I think diplomat is probably a good way to characterize. I think you know, but I've always referred to it as being able to speak at every level. So if I'm talking to a senior executive, if I can, I can speak like a senior executive and if you're talking to an engineer, you talk like an engineer. For talking to designer, you talk like a designer. And the people that have the ability to adapt to their audience and to speak in a way that's consumable to them and understand their ideas and translate those to other groups. You know, that's ultimately a certainly in this industry, that's that's pretty necessary to be successful because you know you're it's hard to orchestrate a value message and the delivery of that value of if you can do that. So it's an interesting so then then there's the added layer. As I think through this right it is all about revenue generation. The end of the day. I mean we may be doing cool stuff and impacting people's lives, but in the day rather, generation is is the goal. And with consultants they, I'm assuming KPMG has a set up where, you know, certain people have to maintain a certain level of a bailability expansion of projects. So with that multifaceted skill set, how are you working with those teams to enable them to be able to talk at all those levels and also stay focused on KP and g's revenue generation, because they essentially become consultive sales professionals at that point as well? I mean yes and no. I think in the traditional consulting model there exists a lot of fungibility of resources, which is a term fungability front. It realist that it's a technical term funde of fungability, fungibility of resources that I learned. That's the term I learned when I came to KPMG. In so, as we you know, keeping G is adopted a specialist model it. What you're really kind of getting away from is you're you're trying to in this.

Sure you know revenues important and and you have to, I have to deliver those things, but you know you're trying to create a place where a person can focus on their craft and and really deliver on that craft and grow in that craft. And so really their free time there, their downtime, is focused on growing that craft and maintaining their edge. And so in that situation with that kind of specialist, you're really just looking for them to be able. It's your responsibility, as the more traditional at all consultant, to set up a situation where they're going to be successful. And so you know you get them in the right room at the right time with the right people, you know the right problem that they can really demonstrate their craft and you know that shows your groups competency and you know your customer feels like you're going to be a great partner to work with. And so there's a trick and you have to the organization has to buy at a high level. So part of that is changing those goals. So you know they have different structures on their goals. They don't you know, they don't have the same level of other you know, metrics and things that you get in the more traditional model into the internal organization is also providing funds and things. I mean sometimes this kind of woulden dollars. But if you, for example, if you're feel like a certain technology is coming down the pipe and you want to be well positioned to take advantage of it when your customers are asking for it, then you can get dollars to have your people, where you Orient Their craft around this thing that that we see coming, and so they're not missing their metrics, but they're also not necessarily working on immediately client work and you know. So it's these kind of getting allocations for for these kind of growth initiatives and innovasion dollars and these kind of things help you meet your metrics and meet your numbers, but also get you and help your people meet their numbers but help you keep your hedge. But I think it comes down to you, and I used to joke about like a bombs eye tree or bubble, the magic bubble. You want to try and set up a place where the or they don't necessarily people who are passionate about their craft and not passionate about revenue generation can focus on their craft and and you know not that you can completely insulate them from the externalities of the business, but you you know you can allow them to focus on that feel like they can they have. They can passionately pursue that, I mean because the advantage for them and the environment and that kind of professional services environment is they they very frequently get to start over. They're not implementing something or building something in a living with it for five years. So you know they're willing to deal with you know you can't protect them perfectly right, but they're willing to deal with some of these things that they would maybe they wouldn't have to deal with amoutterself, for product company or somewhere else, but they're willing to deal with them because they know that they're that they're always getting to do the new thing and that they're always able to push the envelope in that they don't like the project will be on a new one and three or six months later or whatever, and so they can kind of keep moving and they always keep out in front of the industry. And so you find the people that value that. You give an an environment where they can they can focus on their craft and where you can still generate revenue and and meet your meet your metrics from us from business unit perspective. So it sounds very much like a like a team based approach. To reventer generation. I'll try not to use the word sales and about the magic almost something of them. Yeah, we're but it's a team base approach. You have your specialist which are critical to the process. And then is it? Is it principles like yourself that are focused on? Okay, we need to you know, we need to increase this account by ten percent next year or five percent? Where we need to acquire to business? Where's the where the people that are carrying in the number or the target or the goals? So sly, the group is probably split up, like I don't know exact numbers, but it's more than just the partners that are there in the group. You know, call it seventy thirty. I'd like to speak, I guess, speaking about...

...this and more and hypothetical than about my group specifically, because I don't want to be incorrect, but just call it, you know, Seventy thirty, eighty twenty, probably closer to seventy thirty, you know, and that in that situation, you know, you have a group that has a more traditional career paths, for for professional services that are that are more responsible for the account growth and the go to market and it's not that the seventy percent. They still do a lot of go to market activities, but they're not orchestrating the go to market activities. They're you know, they get on a plan, they show up, they talked about what they're great at, you know, and then they can they can move on. Maybe, you know, they do an estimate, they help with with it, but it's all of those in between things, the setting with the meeting, determining who the real buyer is and working on coaches and champions and all these other things you have to do to be effective in that process that they really don't that. Some of the I mean you, I mean every people, are spectrums all of the place. You find some people that love all of those things, including their craft, and you find some people that just don't talk to me about that. So, you know, I guess it's up to every group to kind of set their boundaries, but you want to try to accommodate as why of that spectrum as you can because it just gives you a larger talent pull to recruit from. That's wine. And when you think about, you know, these big digital transformation initiatives or transformation initiatives and kind of the trends that we're seeing. I think you mentioned a couple of Iotai stuff like that. Are you seeing a need for more specialized skills in the consultants or more holistic understanding of business landscape or the things that that you would recommend if somebody was interested in being the ideal professional services consultant that you might recommend to stay ahead of some of these trans and that's tough one. Yes, Sorr, that wasn't in the prediview list. I just came up with it. Yeah, so for my own personal like, I guess it just depends on all what kind of space you're in right I think there's there's lots of room for your traditional strategy consultants. There's a lot of disruption right now. A lot of people are asking what business am I in, and strategy consultants kind of by definition, try to answer that that question. But you know, that kind of trickles down into all other parts of people's operations with maybe not as existential a question, but it's still kind of fun of but still a fundamental question of you know, how are we even really thinking about how we do supply chain this way or really or it or we've really even think about how we just apply chain in the right way or how we address these things. And so I think, you know, across the management consulting spectrum there's there's a lot of availability even for your more kind of traditional path of, you know, going to business school and getting hired out as a kid to one of these groups and just kind of learning, learning as you move from client to client, project project. I still think that's very valid path. I think as you get into the technology space specifically, and design and some of these other areas, you know it's really authenticity works and authenticity cells. And so if you haven't really lived it and you haven't really delivered it, it shows and even even if they don't, even if they can't put their finger on it, it just smells wrong and it's not going to work. And so those situations it's hard to kind of set out with the goal of being a consultant. You know, you more kind of set out with the goal of of, you know, I'm passionate about writing code or I'm passion about doing design, or passion but whatever, and you do that thing and then you kind of realize that, hey, there's this place where I can do this thing where I don't have to spend two years in the same on the same engagement and I can keep on the same project, I can keep moving and keep learning new stuff and then you start learning other aspects of that business, etcetera. I think the traditional path is valid. I do think that it's harder as you're in as you're in tech and other things. And Have you noticed? I mean KPMG. You know, we kind of went through this one when we were synergy, thinking about the merger, so speak, but...

KPG was taxing audit right, historically at least, that's what up until that point, what I knew the mask. And now you've got an experience design, which is a pretty powerful phrase, and and engineering as well. What have you seen be the pluses and mines of taking that, that digital agency, that experience design shop, and integrating it with with a mothership of that size and reach? Right, we were all everybody's it's in the digital space is concerned about that. We talked about it a lot back in the day. I'm just kind of curious now that you're on the other side of it, multiple years of KPMG, if somebody else had an agency that was thinking about Ah, wow, I don't want to. I don't want to sell out to the you know, one of the big four whatever. What would you warn them about or advisable about, now that you know that we didn't know back when the conversation first started. Lots of pluses, certainly a few challenges. I'll say you know the I guess on the I'll start on the challenge side. That way I can end on the positive. So you know on the challenge side. I mean, you're certainly, and I don't think this is specific to the big four. I think it's just become danger I guess I wouldn't care if you got acquired by IBM or you know or whoever right name big professional services firm. Moving from a transition or a smaller one or a large one, you're going to have a portion of people that just don't like being in that big of an environment and so it can be heard like, you know, there's something about being there's there's an intimacy and as in a really small group where you feel like you you know, you know, you know everybody who who's responsible for running the company and and you can ask them, you can corner them and ask them direct questions. And all these kind of things and so that that can be more challenged you to do and an organization that's federated over a hundred and fifty countries and Hads, you know, a couple hundredzero employees and all those other kind of things. You know, I do think that there's an advantage in the partnership model and that, you know, these really are the littal owners of the organization. It's pretty small group. So even in a even in a small to medium size publicly traded company, so not going to know all the shareholders or you know, good good luck, good luck getting a conversation with Cowpers who owns timber cent your stock or something right. So and so I think, you know, there's there's definitely some advantages there to not being public but still being a large and being held by a relatively small group of shareholders. And then there's also the challenge of the mix of branding and how you face the market. You know, I think that if anything, it's really a sign of the maturity of our market in the experience design, engineering space that are that are brands can really work together and the fact that you know, real big companies that want to engage with professional services of firms like keeping g. You know that they want they want all of this from from one place, whereas I think the brand alignment would have been more problematic. You know how it happened a few years earlier. But as the market itself matured and as the customer profile matured, you know, as you saw, you know, would or your your customers that are earlier adopters of technology or startups and other people. And you know then it takes a while for for a very large companies to adopt these kind of things, and so as those happen, they would engage with different kind of services firms and I think naturally the branding stuff kind of works. But if you have people that are really caught up in that branding aspect of it, people want to collect brands on their resumes, so to speak, and things like that, and they're not as focused on on the work and the people, then you know, can be problematic for them, as well understood. On the plus side of things, we've had the ability, I don't know if you if you seen the youtube video of the work we did with the National Basketball Association. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. It's pretty cool stuff and those kind of projects where we're dealing with capabilities that we...

...never would have been able to grow organically. We just wouldn't have had would have had the money. And you know, once you kind of get to certain sizes it's hard to take those kind of risks. And so being able to be in an organization that can do multiple acquisitions and actually put us together and such a way that we can do things that we couldn't do before as independence has been really cool. And but even even beyond just being an organization that can that can do multiple acquisitions, going into the more traditional lines of business has been really interesting for me, like, for example, doing helping doing a due diligence work for mergers and acquisitions. Sounds kind of like boring stuff, right. You think of due diligence and you think account you think like you get like that that family guy picture of the accounts. But the but, the, but the reality of that is is that you're going in and you know you're looking at, as you know, all this technology and as experience, customer experience and all these things have become more important. It's become a much more important part of due diligence to really understand you know, do they have a good customer experience? You know, do they have a talented team? Whereas their product really look like? What are we really buying? If what you're buying is is effectively a software company, might not actually be listed as a software company, but if they interact with their customers via software and they interact their employees via software and it's all connected via software, well then you need to take a look at that. And so I've had I've had a lot of fun personally seeing just the opportunities for personal growth to participate and in those kind of activities and having a valuable opinion and being able to do some valuable analysis and in changing whether or not and Ma happens or how much is were us to various parties has been really kind of cool. And then also, you know, we've had ability to partner up with our strategy practice and and do strategy consulting and other things that I have just been really cool, a lot of fun asking some of those, you know, working with the the strategy guys who kind of ask those fundamental existential questions to a business and then very quickly being able to show them what potential answers could look like like, okay, if you're not really in this business and you're now we're starting to think that you're in this other business, will here's what customer experience over there could look like for you and doing rapid prototyping and other things to make it beyond just some bullet points on a slide and really something they can touch and interact with. And the potential pull through for that kind of work is significant and we've had some success there as well. So it's been really cool excellent. So I want to be respectful the time, so kind of do a little rapid round here at the end to make sure we get you to your next call. But so, as a revenue executive, you've got targets that you got to hit. That makes you would prospect for many people that are out there. I try to use the word prospect, I'll be realistic. Makes your target for people that want to sell to you. So if you could tell what are the top three things if somebody was trying to get your attention or get in front of you, what are the top three things you would tell them to do to capture your attention and be able to start a dialog? HMM, that's that's tough. That's for tough. I guess when I say that stuff, I mean it's really tough to capture myself. They've I guess. I guess the the most honest thing would be it's really hard for for you to capture my attention. If you can, and so, keeping in mind I'm at, I'm in a pretty specific field, well, working in, you know, in the experience space with designers and engineers. But if you can get the people I work with and might team to tell me that they need something, then I'm much more likely to go out and abdicate for the funds to to be able to buy it right, and so that you know if that's a if that's a you know, whatever that is. You know, the things that we really spent money on as a group have been, you know, software licenses or other things, but but they really kind of come up organically saying like hey, you...

...know, this is, this is what we need to really be effective in the delivery of our craft to our customers. Then I have somebody to really advocate for, you know. Otherwise, I mean certainly there are opportunities. You know, if you're going to try to show me that you know you can whatever you can improve my sales cycle or some of these other things. But even that it's hard to break through. It's hard to break through all the noise. And so, you know, I think short of that kind of personal recommendation matters a lot. It's hard to just break through with like a cold email or or something like that. But hearing about it, you know from former go work or something like that's some like yourself. You know, I think it certainly means a lot more. Okay, internal champion or somebody that you respect. That, yeah, speak a word for it. Great. So if you weren't busy being a principle a kpmg, what would you be doing with yourself? I have no adict I think I would be in the software product space somewhere. I'm probably in cloud computing. I realize everybody thinks maybe cloud is kind of kind of done. You know, that buzz word was so five years ago in in AI is the is the new hotness, but I think that, you know, there's a ton of technology that's that's coming into cloud based computing resources that is is not being taken advantage of yet in the market. I think it will be in there. There's just a lot of interesting change that's going on there and and just a lot of a lot of potential next night. You know, I personally find it pretty interesting kind of kind of stuff and I always liked working on those problems that had to scale to end kind of thing. Right, clouds certainly is is a space where you have to get scale. Okay, so we we asked all of our guests about an acceleration insight. Right. So, based on your experience, if you were asked to give sales consoled to be in marketing professionals, you know, one piece of advice or one insight that you believe would enable them to be more effective at beating their targets, what would it be and why? Maybe it maybe it sounds right, but I would say be authentic. You know, and I guess I said it a little bit earlier, but you know, if you're if you really are engaged in the topics that you know that you're advocating for, then then that really comes through and I think that that makes up for a lot of other deficiency. Certainly, you know, no one, I don't think anybody would ever accuse me of being a great salesperson. But you know, if you can, if you can be authentic and be genuinely passionate about, you know, the thing that you're talking about, then I think that that really comes through. Excellent. It's a great advice. Great advice well, Mark, I want to thank you very much for the time today. This has been great for any of our listeners who are interested in seeing the related blog post or other interviews that we've done. Again, check out be to be REV exactcom and please do not hesitate to write a review on itunes and share the magic with co workers, friends and family. I'm sure there's something they can get at it as well. Mark, again, thank you very much for the time. It's be great to talk to you and until we talk again, I wish you nothingbout the best. Thanks, Jad's good to Jeff. Take care. See you've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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