The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mark Shank on What “Digital Transformation” Really Means Today


Digital transformation isn’t Mark Shank’s favorite term.

Yet, he recognizes that it’s widely used, and so he uses the term to speak the language of his clients. He takes the often narrow definition of digital transformation—implementing a new system—and teaches people to work outward from that understanding to identify how everyone involved in transformation is affected.

Listen in to hear Mark share tips for staying ahead of the curve in transformation based on his work with KPMG.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Are you concerned about hitting your revenuetargets this month, quarter or year? Your answer is value prime solutions,a sales training and marketing optimization company leveraging the value selling framework. visit wwwdot value prime solutionscom and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BBrevenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales andmarketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or toolsand resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth inthree, two, one. Welcome everyone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. For those of you that have tojump early or aren't able to listen to the entire podcast, that will weposted it be tob REV exactcom. Of course, you can always track itdown in itunes or using stitcher or whatever your favorite podcast player might be.Recommend checking out not only this interview in the related blog post, but alsoother interviews that we have done today. With us we have mark Shank,who is a principle at KPMG. He runs our experience design and Engineering Group. We've asked them to come on today to talk a little bit about digitaltransformation, how trends are affecting, you know, the consulting practice, whatprofessional services individuals need to do to stay ahead of the game and to bekind of top of their field. Normally, of course, we wanted to startwith a background question, but I want to change it up a littlebit today and and start by first thanking mark for taking the time to behere. I understand he's extremely busy, but would like to start with adifferent type of question to try and front load some value for our listeners.So, Mark, when you think back about, you know, kind ofthe course of your career and you look back at those moments, those definingmoments that you've experienced to get to this point, what lesson you know,what was the major defining moment and what lesson or insights did you take awayfrom it? Wow, defining moment. You know, I don't think thatyou that you realize those things at the time. It's only upon reflection,maybe years later at least. I was a case for me. You know, I think defining moment for me it was kind of a simple one really. I was sitting in a room full of like minded software engineers, withthe the owner of our small company, who still wrote code every day.And, you know, we were doing that by the hour and getting paidfor it. And we needed to do recruiting because we had some talented peopleand customers were asking for more people with with some old level of talent,and we were all too busy to do recruiting and know, and and noone wanted to do it, and so I kind of made nobody stood upand said, Hey, let me go find New People. Yeah, youknow, it's not like we had a great comprehensive recruiting ever read. Imean we had some people kind of come in via referral and we put upsome job ads and things. You know, this was like the age of monsterbut but it was really who's going to manage this process right? Whowas going to make sure that they talked to, if you who's going todetermine who would be the appropriate people for them to talk to and get them, to shepherd them through the process and there's answer their questions right, ittakes a lot of hours to, you know, get through the axe murderscreening right. You know, may make sure this person isn't a waste ofeveryone's time and and I was busy like everybody else. But you know,I just kind of I volunteered to do it. No one else was lookingto do it and I was asked, you know, by our president orwhatever at the time. You asked you, so why do you want to dothis thing nobody else wants to do and I said well, I likethe idea of having a higher degree of efficacy over over the group of peopleat our work with. Then he said good enough. and kind of eversince that point, as we grew and things changed, I just kind oftake I just organically appropriated more and more roles and jobs and things to help, you know, run or organization.

And I never did it from theperspective of trying to acquire management responsibility. I wasn't doing it from a froma wasn't any kind of conscious career move or anything like that. It wasjust me doing something to help or group and you know, and I wasgood at a shore, but you know, I was just just trying to helpthe group and just trying to get us to grow and be more successful. So kind of a focus on doing something that it's going to benefit everybody, not just yourself. Yeah, yeah, I mean we were. We werereally tight group and it was a lot of fun. It was benefitingmyself to I didn't want that to be ruined. I felt like I couldhelp bring in other people that would be just as talented and keep that thatthat density of talent the same while also the group was getting bigger. Thatpart it scared me that we would lose that with the group because we hired, and so I felt more comfortable taking kind of more direct control, controlof that. EXOLUTE, excellent. Okay, so now let's go kind of thestandard question. How did you get started in professional services and end upKPMG? I'm not sure. I mean got to be a safe for work. Got To be safe for work. I never realized I was in professionalservices until I got to keep him G. Yeah, I guess the time ofseries we had questionable. This is kind of like the second job I'veever had. Right. So, so I you know, I did myUndergrad and computer science and I wasn't in professionals, even though I was.I was hired by a government consulting company that, you know, one thatend up getting required by a much larger one and so they were billing formy time by the hour, but I didn't think of myself that way.I was I was a software engineer. I talked like an engineer, Iwalk like an engineer and I worked with engineers and I was very, obviously, very junior, twenty two year old kid, and so you know thatthat was my focus. And so I focused on that craft and even whenwe went to synergy, you know, to our detriment, I guess youknow, later on, I remained focused on that craft and in designers anddevelopers and it was really until that we got acquired by keeping G and Icame to keeping g that I think I learned what professional services really were.So how would you look it looks a little further. How did you definethat? Mean you and I've had conversations about this before, about what ittakes to really be a truly effective consultant, dance specialist. But I mean,what have you learned that you got to keep gets to help broaden thatdefinition of professional services? So but bunch of different things. kind of hardto think we're to start, I think you know, one of the biggestthings that that were that we're looking at is in this is a change inthe market place as much as a change in us, at least in thein the quote unquote digital space. And you know, you know I don'tlike that word, but the it used to be that you could sell skillsand skills kind of sell themselves. And so when someone says, Hey,I need I need some skills, and you say sure, here's some skills, and they say, oh, those look good and and you keep doingwork in that in that sales model works when there's when those skills are prettyscarce and and when there's, you know, more demand than supply. As thingsstart to equal out and and as the market starts to come into equilibrium, you really do have to focus more on a solution oriented sale and beingable to craft a solution, particularly one that that requires multiple kinds of professionalservices, that is presented to a customer back as a holistic solution to ahigh level problem that they have. You know, I think that that's themark of a really good professional services organization and any really good person in practicesprofessional services that that they can go in pull those different things together, adoptsthe perspective of their customer and present to them in such way that they understandhow this kind of trust her their high...

...level problem and then and then goand actually deliver it. Right. So, I mean back in the days we'resynergy and, for those that aren't aware, synergy was a digital agency. I know you hate that word, but now it was. It wasappropriate back then. It's a little over used now. Right. It wasvery it was very blue ocean right back then, and I remember getting thephone calls like, Hey, I need a designer or I need a developerwho specializes an X. right. And as we saw that market change,it became more of they needed a solution that required multiple types of specialists,right. And that's a little bit of a mental shift and I think that'skind of talking about, right, is that ability to see it in amore holistic way and put the piece of the puddle together. Yeah, itwas. It was even a little more insidious than than that. I think. You know, we could pick those out pretty well because even when wewere selling just skills, we realized, if we're just selling a designer,just selling a Dev that we would you know, that that them were ina rate battle, right. And so even when we kind of position tothem that, hey, let us build this software product for you. Andeven when we got to the point that we could get out in the fieldand do customer research and show them, okay, here's your journey map,here your personas and your segmentation and behavior change framework and all these other things, there were still so much of that that we missed and there were stillso much of our success was predicated on the ability of the client to actuallymanage and deliver in so even when we would go in there and build asoftware product for them, if it went down burning flames, it wasn't becausewe were it wasn't because we were bad and it and when we had greatsuccesses, it wasn't because we were uniquely amazing. It was really kind ofdependent on the customers ability to manage software development life cycle, on to actually, you know, to really own all those parts of that. And sowhen we were most successful, and you know kind of you know, goingback those early days, was really when we were working with other software companies. We're working with midlevel exacts that understood the software development process and understood somany of those concepts and we really struggled when we worked with, you know, startups or our lines of business that we're trying to circumvent it and didn'thave any kind of concept or infrastructure ability to they didn't understand the assumptions,they didn't understand the risks. We weren't as good at managing them, whereas, like now, I keep engining in a large organization, we have theability to bring enough services to the table to kind of mitigate the whole thing. And you know, we're large enough and we were successful enough that Idon't feel the pressure that I sought at a small organization to take risks.Right. You know, I can walk away from a deal. I can. I can say, look, this is what it's going to really take. Yeah, your boutique fender may be telling you they can do it fortwenty percent of the cost, but they're ignoring all these other things and youdon't have the ability to manage those yourself. So you're going to have a realproblem if you actually try and take this one. We work with thosecustomers in the beginning. There's a huge education component, right, it wasdigital was so new. The word made sense to then. And Yeah,it was so new. They're like, Oh wow, you guys know whatthis is, but now you see over there, you know the course.Here's the big buzzword now is digital transformation, and I remember before moving into doingwhat I'm doing now, we spent a lot of time on that educationcomponent and it got more difficult. Thank you apple. Once design, theconcept of design, became so prevalent that everybody kind of thought they knew whatit meant and knew what it would impact, you know, their organizations. That'sactually really good point. I had hadn't heard it phrase that way,that that apple actually made people feel like they new design, as opposed tobefore we got the opportunity to like maybe was like a clean slate, definitelylike the Morte, like the Marines teaching someone how to shoot and never shotbefore. They don't have to break any bad habits, right, you know. And Yeah, we're going into customers...

...and now they think like, butmy iphone, but my iphone. I've seen the apple commercial, I knowwhat is is, I know what it means, I know what it andthen you get you know, then there was that transition to experience. Soit became all about the holistic experience, right, and you've got organizations thatare still struggling with it and one of the big words that we still seesocials of all times digital transformation. So I'm curious, based on your evolutionthrough the digital space and now spending time to keepg how are you guys orhow are you defining digital transformation for your clients? Well, you have toreact to the market, right, you have to, you know, doif your job is to service businesses in the business world, then you knowyou have to understand their language and speak their language. And so certainly digitaltransformation is something out there that we that we talked about, I think.But ultimately, to quote another former CO worker of ours, Mike, MikeWolf, digitals just become synonymous with the word modern and so when you saydigital transformation, you're really just talking about transformation in the year two thousand andseventeen and the year two thousand and sixteen and fifteen. So that matter.But the but the point is is that you know, you're just talking abouttransformation. You know transformation is really wholesale organizational change of technology, people,process. And the part that's kind of often ignored in that in technology,people in process, which everybodyill say is is as also the physical spaces thosecan be worked, you know, the customer spaces, people always think ofand they think about that, but they don't think as much about, youknow, the work spaces. That's starting to change now and and we're housesand other things where automation or coming into play and starting to look at augmentedreality and other Internet of things, sensors and other things that start to changethose physical spaces. But it's not just installing a new system. And althoughit often gets that's probably the most frequent implementation of what people refer to asdigital transformation. Is Okay, cool, well, you know, we implementedin because this is public, I won't pick on any particular better, butwe implemented. You know, we implemented said vendors system and therefore we've donedigital transformation. And so, you know, it's actually really looking at how thatso if you're going to take that as your core, you know thatthat's your impetus for the transformation, then it's also looking at, you know, what kind of what's happening to your people of all types as a result. You know, how's that impact in their jobs? Will kind of change? Do you want to go through? And also we're kind of the experiencegaps. You know, if you're if you've identified, you know, thesome of the outcomes that you want to achieve from this implementation and then youknow, okay, well, what's actually going to really get us there?Are are their experience gaps? are their inner crations, or are some pointsolutions that would really, you know, really kind of fill on the gapsfor us and help us actually get to that complete business case? You know, the keeping G does a lot of industry research. One of the thingsthat came out the other day was, you know, fifty three percent ofthe averages, fifty three percent of the business case is realized for, youknow, these large implementations, and so you know that you're expecting kind ofto get half of what you said you were going to get. That gotyou all that budget, and so you know, how can you actually closethat gap? And I get there, get get the other half? Andso it's like look, you know you made this business case, but ourresearch dolls us that you're probably going to get about half of it. Sowhere do you get the other half and do you find it more difficult withsmaller order, I'll say, let's say small to medium sized businesses, forthem to really wrap their heads around the totality of a transformation or is itwere difficult with larger organizations because there's more players like that understanding of you reallyare talking about organizational change and there's a digital component to it. So theymay not understand organization will change. They probably think they understand digital chances arethey don't. And so putting that all together and understanding how that affects thetotality of the organization and the experiences that they deliver are you. Do yousee a stratification of companies that adapt to... easier? You know, it'sinteresting. It's a bit of a dichotomy because the smaller organizations have a greaterability to actually successfully pulled off transformation. The larger organizations have executives and layersof executives that are kind of high up enough and abstracted away enough that theycan see the problems and they can see the industry trends and so they havea greater ambition. So I would say the smaller medium ones, it's hardto get them to really want to. They have the ability but not thewill, and the very large companies have the will but struggle with the abilityand they struggle with the ability because of all you, like you just said, all the players and the fiefdoms in the silos and and the impacts thatare inevitably fell and whereas the smaller, small to medium, you know,they still have executives that are kind of living closer to the line of businessand they're following those dollars and a large way they fall into the trap ofnot valuing employee experience like they value customer experience. And so when they justview all of these everything that the customer isn't touching is just a cost center, is just the thing that unnecessary evil, then then it plays drives this mindsetare around, you know, reducing cost and not seeing these things astheir potential to add value, potential to drive the top line. So doesthat become another facet for, you know, the ideal professional services are consultant candidates. So they not they need to be a specialist in some type ofskill, I. Design, strategy, organization change whenever they not only needto understand how business works, right, so some level of business document,but in some ways it sounds like they also need to be a bit ofa diplomat to be able to communicate from, you know, top level exacts downto those are there in the field trying to implement these changes. Doyou find your teams trying to become, you know, play that that roleof diplomat and making things, you know, smooth across the efforts? Yeah,I think I think diplomat is probably a good way to characterize. Ithink you know, but I've always referred to it as being able to speakat every level. So if I'm talking to a senior executive, if Ican, I can speak like a senior executive and if you're talking to anengineer, you talk like an engineer. For talking to designer, you talklike a designer. And the people that have the ability to adapt to theiraudience and to speak in a way that's consumable to them and understand their ideasand translate those to other groups. You know, that's ultimately a certainly inthis industry, that's that's pretty necessary to be successful because you know you're it'shard to orchestrate a value message and the delivery of that value of if youcan do that. So it's an interesting so then then there's the added layer. As I think through this right it is all about revenue generation. Theend of the day. I mean we may be doing cool stuff and impactingpeople's lives, but in the day rather, generation is is the goal. Andwith consultants they, I'm assuming KPMG has a set up where, youknow, certain people have to maintain a certain level of a bailability expansion ofprojects. So with that multifaceted skill set, how are you working with those teamsto enable them to be able to talk at all those levels and alsostay focused on KP and g's revenue generation, because they essentially become consultive sales professionalsat that point as well? I mean yes and no. I thinkin the traditional consulting model there exists a lot of fungibility of resources, whichis a term fungability front. It realist that it's a technical term funde offungability, fungibility of resources that I learned. That's the term I learned when Icame to KPMG. In so, as we you know, keeping Gis adopted a specialist model it. What you're really kind of getting away fromis you're you're trying to in this.

Sure you know revenues important and andyou have to, I have to deliver those things, but you know you'retrying to create a place where a person can focus on their craft and andreally deliver on that craft and grow in that craft. And so really theirfree time there, their downtime, is focused on growing that craft and maintainingtheir edge. And so in that situation with that kind of specialist, you'rereally just looking for them to be able. It's your responsibility, as the moretraditional at all consultant, to set up a situation where they're going tobe successful. And so you know you get them in the right room atthe right time with the right people, you know the right problem that theycan really demonstrate their craft and you know that shows your groups competency and youknow your customer feels like you're going to be a great partner to work with. And so there's a trick and you have to the organization has to buyat a high level. So part of that is changing those goals. Soyou know they have different structures on their goals. They don't you know,they don't have the same level of other you know, metrics and things thatyou get in the more traditional model into the internal organization is also providing fundsand things. I mean sometimes this kind of woulden dollars. But if you, for example, if you're feel like a certain technology is coming down thepipe and you want to be well positioned to take advantage of it when yourcustomers are asking for it, then you can get dollars to have your people, where you Orient Their craft around this thing that that we see coming,and so they're not missing their metrics, but they're also not necessarily working onimmediately client work and you know. So it's these kind of getting allocations forfor these kind of growth initiatives and innovasion dollars and these kind of things helpyou meet your metrics and meet your numbers, but also get you and help yourpeople meet their numbers but help you keep your hedge. But I thinkit comes down to you, and I used to joke about like a bombseye tree or bubble, the magic bubble. You want to try and set upa place where the or they don't necessarily people who are passionate about theircraft and not passionate about revenue generation can focus on their craft and and youknow not that you can completely insulate them from the externalities of the business,but you you know you can allow them to focus on that feel like theycan they have. They can passionately pursue that, I mean because the advantagefor them and the environment and that kind of professional services environment is they theyvery frequently get to start over. They're not implementing something or building something ina living with it for five years. So you know they're willing to dealwith you know you can't protect them perfectly right, but they're willing to dealwith some of these things that they would maybe they wouldn't have to deal withamoutterself, for product company or somewhere else, but they're willing to deal with thembecause they know that they're that they're always getting to do the new thingand that they're always able to push the envelope in that they don't like theproject will be on a new one and three or six months later or whatever, and so they can kind of keep moving and they always keep out infront of the industry. And so you find the people that value that.You give an an environment where they can they can focus on their craft andwhere you can still generate revenue and and meet your meet your metrics from usfrom business unit perspective. So it sounds very much like a like a teambased approach. To reventer generation. I'll try not to use the word salesand about the magic almost something of them. Yeah, we're but it's a teambase approach. You have your specialist which are critical to the process.And then is it? Is it principles like yourself that are focused on?Okay, we need to you know, we need to increase this account byten percent next year or five percent? Where we need to acquire to business? Where's the where the people that are carrying in the number or the targetor the goals? So sly, the group is probably split up, likeI don't know exact numbers, but it's more than just the partners that arethere in the group. You know, call it seventy thirty. I'd liketo speak, I guess, speaking about...

...this and more and hypothetical than aboutmy group specifically, because I don't want to be incorrect, but just callit, you know, Seventy thirty, eighty twenty, probably closer to seventythirty, you know, and that in that situation, you know, youhave a group that has a more traditional career paths, for for professional servicesthat are that are more responsible for the account growth and the go to marketand it's not that the seventy percent. They still do a lot of goto market activities, but they're not orchestrating the go to market activities. They'reyou know, they get on a plan, they show up, they talked aboutwhat they're great at, you know, and then they can they can moveon. Maybe, you know, they do an estimate, they helpwith with it, but it's all of those in between things, the settingwith the meeting, determining who the real buyer is and working on coaches andchampions and all these other things you have to do to be effective in thatprocess that they really don't that. Some of the I mean you, Imean every people, are spectrums all of the place. You find some peoplethat love all of those things, including their craft, and you find somepeople that just don't talk to me about that. So, you know,I guess it's up to every group to kind of set their boundaries, butyou want to try to accommodate as why of that spectrum as you can becauseit just gives you a larger talent pull to recruit from. That's wine.And when you think about, you know, these big digital transformation initiatives or transformationinitiatives and kind of the trends that we're seeing. I think you mentioneda couple of Iotai stuff like that. Are you seeing a need for morespecialized skills in the consultants or more holistic understanding of business landscape or the thingsthat that you would recommend if somebody was interested in being the ideal professional servicesconsultant that you might recommend to stay ahead of some of these trans and that'stough one. Yes, Sorr, that wasn't in the prediview list. Ijust came up with it. Yeah, so for my own personal like,I guess it just depends on all what kind of space you're in right Ithink there's there's lots of room for your traditional strategy consultants. There's a lotof disruption right now. A lot of people are asking what business am Iin, and strategy consultants kind of by definition, try to answer that thatquestion. But you know, that kind of trickles down into all other partsof people's operations with maybe not as existential a question, but it's still kindof fun of but still a fundamental question of you know, how are weeven really thinking about how we do supply chain this way or really or itor we've really even think about how we just apply chain in the right wayor how we address these things. And so I think, you know,across the management consulting spectrum there's there's a lot of availability even for your morekind of traditional path of, you know, going to business school and getting hiredout as a kid to one of these groups and just kind of learning, learning as you move from client to client, project project. I stillthink that's very valid path. I think as you get into the technology spacespecifically, and design and some of these other areas, you know it's reallyauthenticity works and authenticity cells. And so if you haven't really lived it andyou haven't really delivered it, it shows and even even if they don't,even if they can't put their finger on it, it just smells wrong andit's not going to work. And so those situations it's hard to kind ofset out with the goal of being a consultant. You know, you morekind of set out with the goal of of, you know, I'm passionateabout writing code or I'm passion about doing design, or passion but whatever,and you do that thing and then you kind of realize that, hey,there's this place where I can do this thing where I don't have to spendtwo years in the same on the same engagement and I can keep on thesame project, I can keep moving and keep learning new stuff and then youstart learning other aspects of that business, etcetera. I think the traditional pathis valid. I do think that it's harder as you're in as you're intech and other things. And Have you noticed? I mean KPMG. Youknow, we kind of went through this one when we were synergy, thinkingabout the merger, so speak, but...

KPG was taxing audit right, historicallyat least, that's what up until that point, what I knew the mask. And now you've got an experience design, which is a pretty powerful phrase,and and engineering as well. What have you seen be the pluses andmines of taking that, that digital agency, that experience design shop, and integratingit with with a mothership of that size and reach? Right, wewere all everybody's it's in the digital space is concerned about that. We talkedabout it a lot back in the day. I'm just kind of curious now thatyou're on the other side of it, multiple years of KPMG, if somebodyelse had an agency that was thinking about Ah, wow, I don'twant to. I don't want to sell out to the you know, oneof the big four whatever. What would you warn them about or advisable about, now that you know that we didn't know back when the conversation first started. Lots of pluses, certainly a few challenges. I'll say you know theI guess on the I'll start on the challenge side. That way I canend on the positive. So you know on the challenge side. I mean, you're certainly, and I don't think this is specific to the big four. I think it's just become danger I guess I wouldn't care if you gotacquired by IBM or you know or whoever right name big professional services firm.Moving from a transition or a smaller one or a large one, you're goingto have a portion of people that just don't like being in that big ofan environment and so it can be heard like, you know, there's somethingabout being there's there's an intimacy and as in a really small group where youfeel like you you know, you know, you know everybody who who's responsible forrunning the company and and you can ask them, you can corner themand ask them direct questions. And all these kind of things and so thatthat can be more challenged you to do and an organization that's federated over ahundred and fifty countries and Hads, you know, a couple hundredzero employees andall those other kind of things. You know, I do think that there'san advantage in the partnership model and that, you know, these really are thelittal owners of the organization. It's pretty small group. So even ina even in a small to medium size publicly traded company, so not goingto know all the shareholders or you know, good good luck, good luck gettinga conversation with Cowpers who owns timber cent your stock or something right.So and so I think, you know, there's there's definitely some advantages there tonot being public but still being a large and being held by a relativelysmall group of shareholders. And then there's also the challenge of the mix ofbranding and how you face the market. You know, I think that ifanything, it's really a sign of the maturity of our market in the experiencedesign, engineering space that are that are brands can really work together and thefact that you know, real big companies that want to engage with professional servicesof firms like keeping g. You know that they want they want all ofthis from from one place, whereas I think the brand alignment would have beenmore problematic. You know how it happened a few years earlier. But asthe market itself matured and as the customer profile matured, you know, asyou saw, you know, would or your your customers that are earlier adoptersof technology or startups and other people. And you know then it takes awhile for for a very large companies to adopt these kind of things, andso as those happen, they would engage with different kind of services firms andI think naturally the branding stuff kind of works. But if you have peoplethat are really caught up in that branding aspect of it, people want tocollect brands on their resumes, so to speak, and things like that,and they're not as focused on on the work and the people, then youknow, can be problematic for them, as well understood. On the plusside of things, we've had the ability, I don't know if you if youseen the youtube video of the work we did with the National Basketball Association. Yeah, it's pretty impressive. It's pretty cool stuff and those kind ofprojects where we're dealing with capabilities that we...

...never would have been able to groworganically. We just wouldn't have had would have had the money. And youknow, once you kind of get to certain sizes it's hard to take thosekind of risks. And so being able to be in an organization that cando multiple acquisitions and actually put us together and such a way that we cando things that we couldn't do before as independence has been really cool. Andbut even even beyond just being an organization that can that can do multiple acquisitions, going into the more traditional lines of business has been really interesting for me, like, for example, doing helping doing a due diligence work for mergersand acquisitions. Sounds kind of like boring stuff, right. You think ofdue diligence and you think account you think like you get like that that familyguy picture of the accounts. But the but, the, but the realityof that is is that you're going in and you know you're looking at,as you know, all this technology and as experience, customer experience and allthese things have become more important. It's become a much more important part ofdue diligence to really understand you know, do they have a good customer experience? You know, do they have a talented team? Whereas their product reallylook like? What are we really buying? If what you're buying is is effectivelya software company, might not actually be listed as a software company,but if they interact with their customers via software and they interact their employees viasoftware and it's all connected via software, well then you need to take alook at that. And so I've had I've had a lot of fun personallyseeing just the opportunities for personal growth to participate and in those kind of activitiesand having a valuable opinion and being able to do some valuable analysis and inchanging whether or not and Ma happens or how much is were us to variousparties has been really kind of cool. And then also, you know,we've had ability to partner up with our strategy practice and and do strategy consultingand other things that I have just been really cool, a lot of funasking some of those, you know, working with the the strategy guys whokind of ask those fundamental existential questions to a business and then very quickly beingable to show them what potential answers could look like like, okay, ifyou're not really in this business and you're now we're starting to think that you'rein this other business, will here's what customer experience over there could look likefor you and doing rapid prototyping and other things to make it beyond just somebullet points on a slide and really something they can touch and interact with.And the potential pull through for that kind of work is significant and we've hadsome success there as well. So it's been really cool excellent. So Iwant to be respectful the time, so kind of do a little rapid roundhere at the end to make sure we get you to your next call.But so, as a revenue executive, you've got targets that you got tohit. That makes you would prospect for many people that are out there.I try to use the word prospect, I'll be realistic. Makes your targetfor people that want to sell to you. So if you could tell what arethe top three things if somebody was trying to get your attention or getin front of you, what are the top three things you would tell themto do to capture your attention and be able to start a dialog? HMM, that's that's tough. That's for tough. I guess when I say that stuff, I mean it's really tough to capture myself. They've I guess.I guess the the most honest thing would be it's really hard for for youto capture my attention. If you can, and so, keeping in mind I'mat, I'm in a pretty specific field, well, working in,you know, in the experience space with designers and engineers. But if youcan get the people I work with and might team to tell me that theyneed something, then I'm much more likely to go out and abdicate for thefunds to to be able to buy it right, and so that you knowif that's a if that's a you know, whatever that is. You know,the things that we really spent money on as a group have been,you know, software licenses or other things, but but they really kind of comeup organically saying like hey, you...

...know, this is, this iswhat we need to really be effective in the delivery of our craft to ourcustomers. Then I have somebody to really advocate for, you know. Otherwise, I mean certainly there are opportunities. You know, if you're going totry to show me that you know you can whatever you can improve my salescycle or some of these other things. But even that it's hard to breakthrough. It's hard to break through all the noise. And so, youknow, I think short of that kind of personal recommendation matters a lot.It's hard to just break through with like a cold email or or something likethat. But hearing about it, you know from former go work or somethinglike that's some like yourself. You know, I think it certainly means a lotmore. Okay, internal champion or somebody that you respect. That,yeah, speak a word for it. Great. So if you weren't busybeing a principle a kpmg, what would you be doing with yourself? Ihave no adict I think I would be in the software product space somewhere.I'm probably in cloud computing. I realize everybody thinks maybe cloud is kind ofkind of done. You know, that buzz word was so five years agoin in AI is the is the new hotness, but I think that,you know, there's a ton of technology that's that's coming into cloud based computingresources that is is not being taken advantage of yet in the market. Ithink it will be in there. There's just a lot of interesting change that'sgoing on there and and just a lot of a lot of potential next night. You know, I personally find it pretty interesting kind of kind of stuffand I always liked working on those problems that had to scale to end kindof thing. Right, clouds certainly is is a space where you have toget scale. Okay, so we we asked all of our guests about anacceleration insight. Right. So, based on your experience, if you wereasked to give sales consoled to be in marketing professionals, you know, onepiece of advice or one insight that you believe would enable them to be moreeffective at beating their targets, what would it be and why? Maybe itmaybe it sounds right, but I would say be authentic. You know,and I guess I said it a little bit earlier, but you know,if you're if you really are engaged in the topics that you know that you'readvocating for, then then that really comes through and I think that that makesup for a lot of other deficiency. Certainly, you know, no one, I don't think anybody would ever accuse me of being a great salesperson.But you know, if you can, if you can be authentic and begenuinely passionate about, you know, the thing that you're talking about, thenI think that that really comes through. Excellent. It's a great advice.Great advice well, Mark, I want to thank you very much for thetime today. This has been great for any of our listeners who are interestedin seeing the related blog post or other interviews that we've done. Again,check out be to be REV exactcom and please do not hesitate to write areview on itunes and share the magic with co workers, friends and family.I'm sure there's something they can get at it as well. Mark, again, thank you very much for the time. It's be great to talk to youand until we talk again, I wish you nothingbout the best. Thanks, Jad's good to Jeff. Take care. See you've been listening to the BBrevenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribeto the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so muchfor listening. Until next time,.

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