The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mark Shank on What “Digital Transformation” Really Means Today

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Digital transformation isn’t Mark Shank’s favorite term.

Yet, he recognizes that it’s widely used, and so he uses the term to speak the language of his clients. He takes the often narrow definition of digital transformation—implementing a new system—and teaches people to work outward from that understanding to identify how everyone involved in transformation is affected.

Listen in to hear Mark share tips for staying ahead of the curve in transformation based on his work with KPMG.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Are you concerned about hitting yourrevenue targets this month quarter or year? Your answer is value: primesolutions, a sales, training and marketing optimization companyleveraging the valueselling framework visit, www, dot value, primeSOLUTIONSCOM and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives, traintheir sales and marketing teams to optimize growth, whether you're lookingfor techniques and strategies were tools and resources. You come to theright place. Let's accelerate your growth in three to one: welcomeeveryone to the B to b revenue executive experience. I'm your hostChad Sanderson for those of you that have to jump early or aren't able tolisten to the entire podcast hatill. We posted it BTB REVIZACCOM. Of course youcan always track it down in Itunes, O or using stitcher, or whatever yourfavorite podcast player might be recommend, checking out not only thisinterview in the related blog post, but also other interviews that we have donetoday with us. We have mark Shank, who is a principal at KPMG. He runs erexperience, design, an engineering group we've asked Hem to come on todayto talk a little bit about digital transformation. How trends areaffecting you know the consulting practice, what professional servicesindividuals need to do to stay ahead of the game and to be kind of top of theirfield? Normally, of course, we wanted start with the background question, butI want to change it up a little bit today and start my first thanking markfor taking the time to be here, understand he's extremely busy, butwould like to start with a different type of question to try and front loadsome value for our listeners so mark when you think back about you know kindof the course of your career and you look back a at those moments. Thosedefining moments that you've experienced to get to this point. Whatlesson you know, what was the major defighting moment and what lesson orinsights did you take away from it wow defining moment? You know, I don'tthink that you that you realize those things at the time. It's only uponreflection, maybe years later, at least that 's the case. For me, you know, Ithink the fining moment for me was kind of a simple one. Really I was sittingin a in a room full of like minded software engineers with the owner ofour small company, who still wrote code every day, and you know we were doingthat by the hour and getting paid for it and we needed to do recruitingbecause we had some talented people and customers were asking for more people,W th with some old level of talent, and we were all too busy to do recruiting.No and and no one wanted to do it, and so I kind of D, nobody stood up andsaid: Hey. Let me go find New People Yeah, you know it's not like. We had agreat, comprehensive, recruiting, effor read, I mean we had some people kind ofcome in via referral and we put up some job ads and things. You know this waslike the age of monster, but but it was really who's going to manage thisprocess right. Who was going to make sure that they talked to a few who'sgoing to determine who woul to be appropriate people for them to talk toand get them to shepherd them through the process and thers answer theirquestions. Aried to takes a lot of hours to you, know, get through theaxmorter or screening right. You know, Mak make sure this person isn't a wasteof everyone's time and- and I was busy like everybody else, but you know Ijust kind of I volunteered to do it. No one else was looking to do it and I wasasked you know by our president or whatever at the time you askd you. Sowhy do you want to do this thing? Nobody else wants to do and I said well.I like the idea of having a higher degree of afficacy over over the groupof people that I work with an then he said good enough and kind of ever sincethat point as we grew and things changed I just kind of take. I justorganically appropriated, more and more roles and jobs and things to help you know,run our organization and I never did it...

...from the perspective of trying toacquire management responsibility. I was en doing it from a from a wasn'tany kind of conscious career move or anything like that. It was just medoing something to help or group, and you know- and I was good at a shore,but you know I was just just trying to help the group and just trying to getus to grow and be more successful, so kind of a focus on doing something thatit's going to benefit everybody, not just yourself yeah yeah, I mean we were.We were really tight group and it was a lot of fun. It was benefiting myself to.I didn't want that to be ruined. I felt like I could help bring in other peoplethat would be just as talented and keep that that that density of talent of thesame, while also the group was getting bigger. That part. It scared me that wewould lose that with the group because we hired, and so I felt morecomfortable, taking kind of more direct control control of that Axcellen,excellent. Okay. So now l, let's go kind of standard question: How did youget started in professional services and and UP KPMG? I'm not sure I mean got to be a safferwork got to be SAF or work. I never realized. I was in professionalservices until I got to Kemgyeah. I guess the time o Sur we had questiona.This is kind of like the second job. I've ever had right. So so I you know Idid my Ongrad and computer science and I wasn't in professionals, even thoughI was I was hired by government consulting company, that you know onethat end up getting required by a much larger one, and so they were billingfor my time by the hour. But I didn't think of myself that way I was. I was asoftware engineer. I talked like an engineer. I walked like an engineer andI worked with engineers and I was very obviously very junior twenty two yearold kid, and so you know that that was my focus, and so I focused on thatcraft and even when we went to Senergy, you know to our detriment. I guess youknow later on. I remained focused on that craft and in designers anddevelopers, and it wasn't really until that we got acquired by Kpmgan. I cameto KPMD that I think I learned what professional services really for. So how would you fe Howso, let's EElittle further? How wduld you define that mean? Youand I've hadconversations about this before about what it takes to really be a trulyeffective consultant, DANC specialist. But I mean what have you learned tat?You got to Kea Rog to help broaden that definition of professional services, sout bunch of different thing kind of hard to think where to start, I thinkyou know one of the biggest things that that we'rethat we're looking at is- and this is a change in themarketplace as much as it change in us, at least in the in the quote: Unquote:Digital Space N. You know you know I don't like that word, but the it used to be that you could sellskills and skills kind of sell themselves. And so, when someone says hey, I need Ineed some skills and you say sure here' some skills and they say. Oh those lookgood and- and You keep doing work in that in that sales model works. Whenthere's, when those skills are pretty scarce and and when there's you knowmore demand than supply, as things start to equal out a and the market starts to come intoequilibrium, you really do have to focus more on a solution, oriented saleand being able to craft a solution, particularly one that thatrequires multiple kinds of professional services that is presented to acustomer back s as a holistic solution to a high level problem that they have.You know, I think that that's the mark of a really good professional servicesorganization and any really good personn practicas professional servicesthat that they can go in pull those different things together, adopt theperspective of their customer and present to them in such a way that theyunderstand how this is going to trest...

...her their high level problem and thenand then go and actually deliver it right. So I mean back in the days wewere energy for those that aren't aware. Sytergy was a digital agency. I knowyou hate that word, but now it was. It was appropriate back ten s a littleoverused now right, it was very. It was great blue ocean right back then yeah.I remember getting the phone calls like Hey. I need a designer, for I need aDevelopru specializes in x right and as we saw that morget change, it becamemore of they needed a solution that required multiple types of specialistsright and that's a little bit of a mental shift. I mean, I think, that'skind of yeat talking about right is that ability to see it in a moreholistic way and put the piece yeah the puzle together yeah it was. It was evena little more insidious than that. I think you know we could pick those outpretty well, because even when we were selling just skills, we realized, ifwe're just selling a designer, just selling a Dev that we would. You knowthat h them were in a rate battle right, and so, even when we kind of positionto them that hey, let us build this softwar product for you and even whenwe got to the point that we could get out in the field and do customerresearch and show them okay. Here's your journey map p here your personasand your segmentation and behavior change framework and all these otherthings there wer still so much of that that we missed- and there was still somuch of our success- was predicated on the ability of the client to actuallymanage and deliver, and so even when we would go in there and build a softwareproduct for them. If it went down burning flames, it wasn't because wewere it wasn't because we were bad and it and when we had great successes itwasn't because we were uniquely amazing. It was really kind of dependent on thecustomers ability to manage softer development lifecycle on toactually you know to really own all those parts of that, and so when wewere most successful- and you know kind of you know going back, those earlydays was really when we were working with other software companies, weereworking with midlevel, exacts that understood the software developmentprocess and they understood so many of those concepts. And we really struggledwhen we worked with. You know startups or our lines of business that weretrying to circumvent it and didn't have any kind of concept or ninfrastructureability to they didn't understand the assumptions they didn't understand. Therisks we weren't as good at managing them, whereas, like now a keep mpeingin a large organization, we have the ability to bring enough services to thetable to kind of mitigate the whole thing, and you know we're large enough,and we were successful enough that I don't feel the pressure that I foughtit a small organization to to take risks right. You know I can walk awayfrom a deal. I can, I can say look. This is what it's going to really take:Yeah you're, a Boutiqu fender, maybe telling you they can do it for twentypercent of the cost, but they're gnoring, all these other things, andyou don't have the ability to manage those yourself so you're going to havea real problem. If you actually try and take this on when We'ere working withthose custoers in the beginning, there was a huge education component right,it was yeah dis't always so now. The word made sense to then and ye it wasso new they're like Oh wow, you guys know what this is, but now you see overthere. You know the course hers. The Big Buzz word now is digitaltransformation, and I remember before moving into doing what I'm doing now,we spent a lot of time on that education component and it got moredifficult. Thank you. Apple. Once design, the concept of design became soprevalent that everybody kind of thought they knew what it meant andknew what it would impact you know their organizations, that's actually areally good point. I hadn't hadn't heard it phrase that way: Tha that thatapple actually made people feel like they knew design, as opposed to beforewe got the opportunity to like mayit was like a clean slate, definite anlike the Murt, like the Marines teaching someone how to shoot the nevershot before they don't have to break any bad habits. You know and yeah we'regoing into customers and how they...

...think's like, but my iphone, but myiphone I've seen the apple commercial. I knowwhat Thistin is. I know what it means. I know what and then you get you know,and then there was that transition to experience. So it became all about theholistic experience right and you've got organizitions that are stillstruggling with it, and one of the big words that we still see socials up alltimes, digital transformation. So I'm curious based on your evolution throughthe digital space and now spending time a kg. How are you guys or how are youdefining digital transformation for your clients? Well, you have to reactto the market right. You have to, you know, do if your job is the servicebusinesses in the business world, and you know you have to understand theirlanguage and speak your language, and so certainly digital transformation issomething out there that that we talk about. I think, but ultimately to quoteanother former coworker of ours: Mi like Welf digitals just becomessanonymous with the word modern, and so, when you say, digital transformation,you're really just talking about transformation an the year two thousandand seventeen in the year, two thousand and sixteenand fifteen o thot matter. But but the point is: is that you know you're justtalking about transformation, you know. Transformation is really wholesaleorganizational change of technology people process and the part that's kindof often ignored in that in technology people and process, which everybodywill say as also the physical spaces. Those can be workd. You know thecustomer spaces, people always think of, and they thinkg about that, but theydon't think as much about you know the workbases, that's starting to changenow and and warehouses and other things where automation are coming into playand trying to look at augmented reality and other Internet of things censorsand other things that start to change those physical spaces. But it's notjust installing a new system and although it often gets that's, probablythe most frequent implementation of what people refer to as disualtransformation is okay cool. Well, you know we implemented and because this ispublic, I won't pick on any particular better, but we implemented. You know weimplemented sed vendors system and therefore we've done dititaltransformation, and so you know it's actually really looking at how that. Soif you're going to take that as your core, you know t at that's your impetusfor the transformation than it's also looking at you know what kind of what'shappening to your people of all types. As a result, you know: how is thatimpacting their jobs? What kind of change do you want to go through andalso we're kind of the experience gaps? You know if you're, if you'veidentified, you know some of the outcomes that you want to achieve fromthis implementation, and then you know: Okay. Well, what's actually going toreally get us there are their experience, gaps or their intecrationsor are some point solutions that would really you know, really kind of feil onthe caps for us and help us actually get to that complete business case. Youknow the HE KTM s does a lot of industry research. You K one one of thethings that came out the other day was you know. Fifty three percent of theaverage is fifty three percent of the business case is real highs, for youknow these large implementations, and so you know you're, expecting kind ofto get half of what you said. You were going to get that got you all thatbudget, and so you know how can you actuallyclose that gap in Te PUC fit there get get the other half, and so it's likelook. You know you made this business case, but our research dells us thatyou're probably going to get about half of it. So where do you get the otherhalf? Do you find it more difficult with smaller work, Oesa, let's say small,the medium size, businesses for them to really wrap their heads around thetotality of a transformation whore? Is it were difficult with largerorganizations because there's more players like that understanding of ayou really are talking about organizational change and there's adigital component to it. So they may not understand organizational change.They probably think they understand digital chances. Are they don't and soputting that all together and Understandin? How that affects thetotality of the organization and the experiences that they deliver? Are you?Do you see a stratification of...

...companies that adapt to it easier? Youknow it's interesting. It's a bit of a decotomy, because the smallerorganizations have a greater ability to actually successfully pull offtransformation. The larger organizations have executives andlayers of executives that are kind of high up enough and abstract it awayenough that they can see the problems and they can see the industry trendsand,and so they have a greater ambition, so I would say: Tho Smaller medium ones,it's hard to get them to really want to. They have the ability, but not the will,and the very large companies have the will but struggle with the ability andthey struggle with the ability. Because of all you, like you just said, all theplayers and the fietoms and the silos and and the impacts that are inevitablyfelt and whereas t the smaller, smaller medium. You know they still haveexecutives that are kind of living closer to the line, business andthrthey're. Following this dollars and an a large way, they fall into the trapof not valuing employee experience, like they value customer experience,and so when they just view all of these everything that the customer is intouching is just a cost center. It's just the thing that th unnecessary evil then then play drives. This mindsetaround you know reducing cost and not seeing these things as their potentialto add value potential to drive the top line. So does that become another facet?For you know the ideal professional services are Consulteng candidates, sothey not only need to be a specialist in some type of skill. I designstrategy organizational change whatever. They not only need to understand howbusiness works right, so some level of business accument, but in some ways itsounds like they also need to be a bit of a diplomat to be able to communicatefrom you know, top level exacts down to those that are in the field. Trying toimplement these changes. Do you find your teams trying to become? You knowplay that that role of diplomat and making things you know smooth acrossthe effort yeah? I think I think diplomat is probably a good, a good wayto characterize that. I think you know, but I've always referred to it as beingable to speak at every level. So if I'm talking to a senior executive, I can, Ican speak like a senior executive and if you're talking to an engineer, youtalk like an engineer if you're talking to designer you talk like a designerand the people that have the ability to adapt to their audience and to speak ina way, that's consumable to them and understand their ideas and translatethose to other groups. You know that's ultimately, certainly in this industrythat that's pretty necessary to be successful, because you know you'reit's hard to orchestrate a value message and the delivery of that value.If you can, you know do that. So it's an interesting. So then, then, there'sthe added layer, as I think through this right. It is all about REVENDEgeneration. At the end of the day I mean we may be doing cool stuff, animpacting people's lives, but in the day rever generation is, is the goaland with consultants they I'm assuming Kapyouingas setup, where you knowcertain people have to maintain a certain level of abillability expansionof projects. So with that multifacited skills, tat the. How are you workingwith those teams to enable them to be able to talk at all those levels andalso stay focused on KPM GS, revenue generation because they essentiallybecome consultive sales professionals? At that point, as well I mean yes andno, I think, in the traditional consulting model, there exists a lot offungeability of resources, which is a term fungability Forereli, but it's atechnical, ter bunch of funsability fungability of resources that I learnedthat's the term I learned when I came to kpmg, and so as we you know, KPMG is adopteda specialist model in what you're really kind of getting away from. IsYour you're trying to in this sure you...

...know I' revenues? Important and- andyou have to have to deliver those things, but you know you're trying tocreate a place where a person can focus on their craft and and really deliveron that craft and Growin that craft and so really their free time. Ther. Theirdowntime is focused on growing that craft and maintaining their edge, andso in that situation with that kind of specialist you're, really just lookingfor them to be able. It's your responsibility as the more traditionalconsultant to set up a situation where they're going to be successful, and soyou know you get them in the right room at the right time with the right people,but you know the right problem that they can really demonstrate their craft,and you know that shows your Croup's competency and you know your customerfeels like you're, going to be a great partner to work with, and so there's atrick and you have to the organization has to buy in t athigh level. So part of that is changing those goals. So you know they havedifferent structures on their goals. They don't you know they don't have thesame level of other. You know metrics and things that you get in the moretraditional model into the internal organization is also providing fundsand things I mean sometimes is kind of wooden dollars. But if you, for example,if Youre feel like a certain technology is coming down the pipe- and you wantto be well positioned to take advantage of it when your customers are askingfor it, then you can get dollars to have your people where you Orient Theircraft around the thing that that we see coming and so they're not missing theirmetric, but they're afte, not necessarily working on immediatelyclient work, and you know so it's these kind of you know getting allocationsfor for these kind of growth initiatives and innovation dollars, andthese kind of things help you meet your metrixs and meet your numbers, but alsoget you don help. Your people meet their numbers but help you keep youredge, but I think it comes down to you and I used to to joke about like abonmsie tree or a bubble, the magic welbel you want to try and sea place where the are they don't. necesswere people who are passionateabout their craft and not passionate about revenue generation can focus ontheir craft and- and you know not that you can completely insulate them fromthe externalities of the business. But you you know you can allow them to focus on that feel likethey can. They have. They can passionately pursue that. I meanbecause th the advantage for them and and the environment and the kind ofprofessional services environment is they very frequently get to start overthey're, not implementing something or building something and a living with itfor five years. So you know they're willing to deal with. You know youcan't protect them perfectly right, but they're willing to deal with some ofthese things that they wouldn't maybe they wouldn't have to deal with amountof self or product company or somewhere else, but they're willing to deal withthem, because they know that they're that they're always getting to do thenew thing and that they're always able to push the envelope and that theydon't like the project te be on a new one and three or six months later orwhatever, and so they can kind of keep moving and they always keep out infront of the industry. And so you find the people that value that and yougiven them, afarm Wer they can, they can focus on their craft and where youcan still generate revenue and meet your meyour metrics from a frombusiness. You know perspective, so it sounds very much like a like a teambased approach to revenue generation, an I try not to asword sales, an e, wejo to docte magic fuel B, Yeah that work, but it's a team based approach.So you have your specialist, which are critical to the process and then is. Isit principles like yourself that are focused on okay? We need to you know.We need to increase this account by ten percent next year or five percent wher.We need to acquire yeur business where's, the whoe, the people that arecarrying in the number or the target or the goals so to speak. The group isprobably split up, like I don't know, exact numbers, but it's more than justthe partners that are there in the group. You know call it. Seventy thirtyI'd like to speak. I guess speaking...

...about this on more an a hypotheticalthan about Mygro, specifically, because I don't want to be incorrect, but justcall it. You Know Seventy Thirty, eight twenty, probably closer to seventythirty, you know and that in that situation you know you have a groupthat has a more traditional carer path for for professional services that are,that are more responsible for the account growth and the go to market.And it's not that the seventy percent. They still do a lot of good to marketactivities, but they're not orchestrating tho go to marketactivities there. You know they get on a play and they show up. They talkabout what they're Grat at you know, and then they can they can move on.Maybe you know they do an estimate they help with with it. But it's all thosein between things, the setting with the meeting determining who the real buyeris and working on, coaches and champions, and all these other thingsyou have to do to be effective in that process, that they really don't that.Some of the I mean you I mean eery people are spectrums all over the place.You find some people that love all of those things, including their craft,and you find some people that just don't talk to me about thatright. Soyou know, I guess it's up to every group to kind of set their boundaries,but you want to try to accommodate as whie of that spectrum is again becauseit just gives you a larger talent toll to recruit from exelent D and when youthink about you, know these big digital transformation initiatives ortransformation initiatives and kind of the trends that were seeing. I thinkyou mentioned a couple like Iot ai stuff, like that, are you seeing a needfor more specialized skills in theconsultance or more holistic, understanding of a business landscapenow therere things that that you would recommend if somebody was interested inbeing the ideal professional services consultant that you might recommend tostay ahead of some of these trans and that's tough one ye, sorry that wasn'tin the PRAF US I just came up with it yeah. So for my own person like, I guess itjust depends on what kind of space you're in right. I think there'sthere's lots of room for your traditional strategy. Consultance,there's a lot of disruption right now. A lot of people are asking whatbusiness am I in and strategy, consulance kind of by definition, tryto answer that that question, but you know that kind of trickles down intoall other parts of people's operations with maybe not as existential aquestion, but but it still kind of fun, but still a fundamental question of youknow: H. Are we even really thinking about how we do supply chain this wayor really ori? We really even think about how we just pply chain in theright way or how we address these things, and so I think you know, acrossthe management, consulting spectrum. There's there's a lot availability,even for your more kind of traditional path of you know, going to businessschool and getting hired out as a kid to one of these groups and just kind ofo the learning learning. As you move from client to client project project,I still think that's ver valid path. I think, as you get into the technologyspace specifically and design an some of these other areas, you know it'sreally authenticity works and authenticity cells, and so, if youhaven't really lived it and you haven't really delivered it, it shows and even even if they don't, even ifthey can't put their finger on it, it just smells wrong. It's not going towork and so no situations, it's hard to kind of set out with the goal of beinga consultant. You know you more kind of set out with a goal of of you know,I'mpassionate about writing code or I'mfassioning about doing design orpession, but whatever- and you do that thing, and then you kind of realizethat hey there's this place, where I can do this thing where I don't have tospend two years. On the same on the same engagement and I cul on the sameproject, I can keep moving and keep learning new stuff, and then you startlearning other aspects of that business etcea. I think the traditional path isvalid. I do think that it's harder as you're as you're, intact and otherthings and have you noticed, I mean Kpmg, andyou know we kind of went through this one when we were asynergy thinkingabout the the mergers so speed, but KPG...

...was taxin audit right historically, atleast that's what open? To that point, what I knew the mass and now you've gotan experience design, which is a pretty powerful phrase and engineering as well.What have you seen be t a the pluses and minuses of taking that that digitalagency that experience design shop and and integrating it with with amothership of that size and reach right? We wont everybody's, it's an digitalspace is concerned about that. We talked about it a lot back in the day,I'm just kind of curious now that you're on the other side of it,multiple years, a KPMG. If somebody else had an agency that was thinkingabout Oh wow, I don't want to. I don't want to sell ot to the you know, one ofthe big four whatever. What would you warn them about or advise them aboutnow that you know that we didn't know back when the conversation fors startedlast of pluses, certainly a few challenges allsay, you know the. I guess on the I'll start on thechallenge side. That way, I can end on the. So you know on the challenge side. Itmean you're, certainly- and I don't think this is specific- a big for Ithink this just bicomint. I guess I wouldn't care if you got a part by IDMor you know, or whoever right name, big professional services from osee movingfrom a transition or a smaller Ondor, a large one, you're going to have aportion of of people that just don't like being in that big of anenvironment, and so it can be hard, like you know, there's something aboutbeing: There's there's an intimacy and in a really small group where you feellike you. You know, you know, you know everybody who who's responsible forrunning the company and- and you can ask them- you- can corner them and askthem direct questions and all these kind of things, and so that that can bemore challengeing to do in an organization that's federated over a hundred and fiftycountries and Hav. You know a couple hundred hosand employees and all thoseother kind of things you know. I do think that there's an advantage in thepartnership model and that you know these really are the literowners of theorganization. It's pretty small group, so even in a in a even in a smallthe,medium size, probably traded company. So not going to know all theshareholders or you know, good. Good Luck, good luck, getting a conversation withcalpers who owns N tem person of your stock, or something right so, and so I think you know, there'sthere's definitely some advantages there to not being public but stillbeing large and being held by a relatively small group of shareholders,and then there's also the challenge of the mix of branding and how you facethe market. You know, I think that if anything, it's really a sign of thematurity of our market N in this experience, design and engineeringspace that are that our brands can really work together and the fact thatyou know real big companies that want to engage with professional services offirms like keepngg. You know that they want they want all of this from fromone place, whereas I think the the brand alignment would have been moreproblematic. You know had it happened a few years earlier, but as the marketitself mature and as the customer profile matured, you know, as you saw,you know, t or Youryour customers that are early adopters of technology orstartups and other people, and you know, then it takes a while for for verylarge companies to adopt these kind of things. And so, as those happen, theywant to engage with different kind of services firms and I think, naturally,the braining stuff kind of works. But if you have people that are reallycaught up in that branding aspect of it, people want to collect brands on theirresumes. So to speak, and things like that and they're not as focused on onthe work and the people, then you know, can be problematic for them as wellunderstood understood on the plus side of things. We've had the ability- Idon't know if you, if you've seen the the youtube video of the work we didwith the National Basketball Association yeah, it's prettydepressive, it's pretty cool stuff and those kind of projects where we'redealing with capabilities that we never...

...would have been able to groworganically. We just wouldn't have had wouldn't have had the money, and youknow once you kind of get to certain size, it's hard to take those kind ofrisks and so being able to be in an organzation that can do multipleacquisitions and actually put us together in such a way that we can dothings that we couldn't do before, as independence has been really cool andbut even even beyond just being an organizition that can that can domultiple acquisitions going into the more traditional lines of business hasbeen really interesting for me like, for example, doing helping doing duDiligence, work for mergers and acquisitions sounds kind of like boringstuff right, you think. Oh, do diligence. Do you think a count? Youthink, like you, get like that, that family guy picture of the accounts EA, but he but the but the reality of that is- isthat you're going in and you know, you're looking at. As you know, allthis technology and as experience customer experience and all thesethings have become more important, it's become a much more important part of dodiligence to really understand you know: Do they have a good customer experience.You know to they have a talented team where their product really look likewhat are we really buying if what you're buying is is effectively asoftware company might not actually be listed as a software company, but ifthey interact with their customers via software and they interacted theiremployees via software and it's all connected to Yo of Software Wele, thenyou need to take a look at that, and so I've had. I've had a lot of funpersonally, seeing just opportunities for personal growth to participate inin those kind of activities and having a valuable opinion and being able to dosome valuable analysis and in changing whether or not then MNA happens or howmuch it's worth to. Various parties has been really kind of cool and then alsoyou know, we've had ability to partner up with thoir strategy practice and anddo strategy consulting and other things that have just been really cool and alot of fun. You know asking some of those you know working with h thestrategy, guys who kind of ask those fundamental existential questions to abusiness and then very quickly being able to show them what potentialanswers could look like like okay, if you're not really in this business andyou R and now we're starting to think that you're in this other business willher's what customer experience over there could look like for you and doingrapid prototyping and other things to to make it beyond just some bullapoints on a slide and really something they can touch and interact with andand the potential pool through, for that kind of work is significant andwe've had some success there as well. So it's been really cool excellent, soI wanno I want to be respectful the time so kind of do a little rapid roundhere at the end, to make sure we get you to your next call, but so as arevenue executive, you've got targets at you got to hit. That makes you withprospect for many people that are out there. I try to use the word prospect I'll, berealist to make sue target or people that want to sell to you. So if youcould tell, I whate are the top three things. If somebody was trying to getyour attention were get in front of you. What are the top three things? Youwould tell them to do to capture your attention and be ableto start a dialogue hm. That's! That's tough! That's really!Tough! I guess when I say that stuff I mean it's really tough to capturemyself. I guess I guess T e. The most honestthing would be it's really hard for for you to capture my attention. If you caninso keeping a mind, I E N, I'm in a pretty specific field, wit working inyou know in the experience bace with designers and engineers, but if you canget the people, I work with an my team to tell me that they need somethingthen I'm much more likely to go out and avdocate for the funds to to be able tobuy it right and so that you know. If that's, if that's a you know whateverthat is, you know the things that weae really spent money on as a group havebeen, you know, soffer licenses or other things, but but they really kindof come up organically, saying like hey,...

...you know this is this is what we needto really be effective in the delivery of our craft to our customers. Then Ihave somebody to really advocate, for you know. Otherwise I mean. Certainlythere are opportunities. You know if you're going to try to show me that youknow you can whatever you can improve mysell cycle or some of these otherthings, but even that it's hard to break through it's hard to breakthrough all the noise, and so you know, I think, short of that kind of personalrecommendation matters a lot it's hard to just break through with like a cool,demail or or something like that. But hearing about it, you know from w former cowork or something like that.Someone like yourself, you know, I think it certainly means a lot moreokay, internal champion or somebody that you respect and that yeah canspeak. A word for it right, so if you weren't busy being a principal Ik kpmg,what would you be doing with your self? I have no. I I think I would be in thesoftware products base some where I'm probably in cloud computing. I realizeeverybody thinks maybe cloud is kind of kind of done. You know that buzz wordwas so five years ago and AI is the is the new hotness, but Ithink that you know there's a ton of technology that that's coming intocloud based computing resources that is, is not being taken advantage of yet inthe market. I think it will be in there's just a lot of interestingchange. That's going on there and and just a lot of a lot of potentialnext night. You know I personally find a pretty interesting kind of kind ofstuff, and I always liked working on this problems that had to scale to and kindof thing right cloud certainly is busnas pase, where you have to getscale excellent. Okay, so we ask all of our guess about an acceleration insightright. So, based on your experience, if you were ask IG GIF sales, consultingan marketing professionals, you know one piece of advise or one insight thatyou believe would enable them to be more effective at beating their targets.What would it be and why maybe maybe it sounds tright but I would say, beauthentic. You know- and I guess I said it a little bit earlier, but you knowif you're, if you really are engaged in the topics that you know that you areadvocating for then, then that really comes through, and I think you knowthat that makes up for a lot of other deficients. Certainly you know y? U No one! I don'tthink anybody would ever accuse me of being a great salesperson, but you know if you can, if you can beauthentic and be genuinely passionate about, you know, th the thing that you'retalking about, then I think that that really comes through excellentexcellent. It's a great advice, great advicefo mark. I want to thank you verymuch for the time today. This has been great for any of our listeners who areinterested in seeing the related block, post or other interviews that we'vedone again check out btob revizachcom and please do not hesitate to write areview on hitunes and share the magic with coworkers, friends and family, I'msure there's something they can get out it as well. Mark again, thank you verymuch for the time. It's been great to talk to you and until we talk again, Iwish you nover bi the bast thanks Yotis good chat. Take care. Yep You've been listening to the BTBrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show, an itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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