The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mark McKinney & Steve Fedorko on “My Client Is the Devil:” How to Stop Complaining and Get a Better Perspective

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s never a shortage of people complaining about their clients.

You can get stuck in that kind of thinking, but there is another way of looking at things. It all comes down to the way you think about yourself and your client. After all, you can’t do a great job taking care of clients until you’ve taken care of yourself.

Today’s guests are Mark McKinney, VP of Client Development at Bottle Rocket Studios and Steve Fedorko, both authors of the book My Client Is the Devil (And Other Myths). They’re both psychologists who happened to work in marketing agencies, so they put their expertise together. They left academia to learn and teach how much psychology is used in business everywhere.

There are a lot of books on helping clients, but not a lot on how you help yourself get better at helping clients. This is one of them.

Are you concerned about hitting Yaurrevenue targets this month quarter or year? Your answer is value: primesolutions, a sales, training and marketing optimization companyleveraging the valueselling framework visit, www, dot value, primeSOLUTIONSCOM and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast, dedicated helpin executives, traintheir sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're lookingfor techniques and strategies were tools and resources. You come to theright place. Let's accelerate your growth in three to one: welcomeeveryone to the B to b revenue executive experience thanks for joiningus today. I'm your host Chad Sanderson. If you have to jump earlior, not ableto listen to the entire show, please visit the website to be tob. Rev,exactcom beable, to find a link to today's interview, as well as others,we've conducted in additionto, some blog posts and other highly relevantcontents. Wev Put up there to help enable your ability to beat yourtargets. I believe today's conversation is going to provide a great deal ofvalue to those that are in the professional services arena salesprofessionals, who targets enterprise type deals where complex relationshipdynamics are the norm. I am lucky to have with me mark mckinney andStephdorco. Authors of my client is the devil and other myths. Both arepsychologists with PhDs from the University of Texas at Arlington, andit's been a great deal of their careers in professional services. Today. Markis the svp of marketing and corporate strategy, an bottle rocket studios, theDigital Agency based in Dallas and Steveis founder of the fdorco group,and routinely consults with fortune five hundred clients. Gentlemen, I wantto thank you getting for your time today. I greatly appreciate it lookingforward to our discussion as way of getting started, how about Hieben alittle background. How did you to meet what was it in your careers that madeyou realize there was a need for a book like this bull. This is stave and mark,and I both men in graduate school. We both have big interest in psychologyand it was a natural affiliation there and a lot of the same interests and wewent on afterwards to actually work in academe for a while, which was wherewere intended at first. But it says compelling reasons for Friends of ours.Wou got to come into business because te psychology everywhere, and so wespend time in to propecinal services, were on everything from marketing andAD agencies to corporate training, to it and last years or spent in the themarketing arena, and we saw a lot of the same issues that were happeningwith ofescial servicees, like in marketing that had to do with the stuffwe'd learned in psychology, and we thought we could do a lot of help there.In fact, we were doing it kind of imprompt to as just being psychoologistto happen to work in marketing agencies, and so we decide to put the booktogether and offer it as orshut up and also you know, one onmal attraction sopracticing psychologist that transitioned into professional servicestypes of arena. It would be like I said we left academ years ago and which is avery nice life by the way, by te great opportunity to work. We Dodn'trealize how much psychologist we use. I business everywhere in this particularaspect, was a nice overlay of our experience in that field, as well aswhat we could offer being psychology, excellent excellent with the transitiondifficult for people in business to kind of accept right, you don't thinkof of psychologist cipically when you think of you know big business, there's,obviously a lot o psychology that goes on, but I'm curious was there as youmade that transition did you have to do a lot of explaining why psychologistswere leaving academia? This is mark. We didn't have to do a lot of explainingbecause, fortunately, both of us, the first step out of academics and intothe business world, was into a business that was a multimedia training,business and training education. Psychology have a fairly naturaloverlap, and so people weren't all that surprised. But what would happensometimes, as we get an introduced to...

...clients and it would be Wili we'd likeyou to meet Dr Fadorco or Dr mckinney, and that would lead to classicquestions like well. What's your doctrate in you know, and we would say,psychology and people would say: Oh, you must be analyzing me and classic retort on. That is only ifyou're paying a hundred dollars right. I don't suppose either. One of you guysare poker players, probably a little bit too much information on myself, butmy therapist is actually a poker player. I've always thought the psychologisthad an uneven edge in playing poker, not that that's anthing guys have toworry about, but it was the the analysis comment. Maybe think aboutthat. So you guys were in academy. Together, we transitioned out did sometraining, I'm curious. When did you realize there was a need for this book?I was working as the Managing Director of Digital Marketing Agency and myaccount services. People were in my office really almost daily and it wouldbe all the clients doing this terrible. I can't believe they're doing this. Whyare they picking on me and it just really became kind of a real repetitivekind of activity, and I thought you know this is an interesting question,because, while the client maybe is not doing what you want them to do, they'realso paying us a lot of money, and so it's really not okay to tell them toyou know, get off somewhere. So I started thinking these people have apretty stressful life and marketing. These are often fairly young people.That might be their first second job out of college, and I was just noticingthat they didn't have any skill set or any tool set to deal with this otherthan to complain to other people and then go out and drink after word, andboth of those are pretty good, but they wear it thin. After a while, and so Istarted thinking, maybe some of those things that I used to teach patientsyou know literally patiencs in impatient and noutpatient settingscould be applicable to these people who are having a very stressful day. Oftenit's interesting in professional services. I've been it for lot of years,and I think if you asked any professional services person who theworst client was they'l all, let me tell you right: There's always one thatseems to scar them more than others, and the the book was interestingbecause it's you know if we hear a lot of people talk about how you help theclients, but there hasn't been as much focus on how you help yourself becomebetter at helping the clients right, which is which was one of the thingsthat really spoke to me about the book. I'm curious, though, what made you guyssettle on the title? Well, I think th t hat's a greatquestion and part of it is that we literally would hear this from people.We worked with. That, actually would say you know at Plie from Helar. Myclient is the devil. Askd me to do this, so we didn't have to look far from itand it just put it out us out how really infrinchd that belief can be,and these people are particularly stressed because they have a client toplease they have teams that they work with that. Often they aren directmanagers of there just working with those people to coordinate their work.They got their own manager, often it a small agecy, there's also an owneraround, so they get pulled in every direction. So they have limit amount ofauthority, but a lot of responsibility, so that kind of came naturally, but wewanted to play on thei. Part of you know it's in the hey, the beholder thatwe're not so much disturbed by the events of the world, but the view wetake it thos and I know, there's nothing new to mark an Steve in termsof that. That's very old psychology, an pilosy back thousands of years, butit's very true and it's easy when it in o your first job. You have a bigdemanding, foliof clients to forget that, and toand re really stressed about things- and we saw this all the time withpeople, especially when they had long term relationship with clients, andthey were actually not taking care of themselves very well they're, tryingvery hard to please everybody, and you know you can't really do a great jobuntil you've taken care of yourself well to I'll. Tell you Chad.Interestingly, we have to always point out the second title Y, because we'llget people who'll see the title of the...

...book. My client is the devil andthey'll immediately begin. Oh, I know exactly what you mean. I definiel justlike that n WEU have to point out notice that it says and other mens. I gotta have this to wee or workhoutter, typically half day or a day, and we clearly spend what about twentythirty minutes at the beginning near the beginning of each forkshop hearingthe stories from others about why Youre clan is a te there's. Never a shortage.Weu have to cut a short, but we get through that, so that people can getthat part out, and then we spend the balk of the the worksheper. Of course,focusing on you know, there's really another way to look at things andthere's ways: Many wayes good wiys to take care of yourself as you go throughthis very demanding job, yeah becomes a Cathartic, almost purjing right, get itout of the way. So you can get to the point where you can help them. YOUV gotto start byletting them admit that they do have a client that is the devil andgiving that rather than saying. Well, it's all been a myth. Let us tell youstuff, so it works that way. Yeah and you mentioned, you know that it waskind of olders, older psychology, O or philosophy h's been around for years,but I mean there's a huge resurgence in this right now and I think some of it n.You guys tell me if I'm wrong, but I see it a lot with clients that arestruggling with integrating millennials into the workforce, or you have peoplethat have been doing it for enough years that they've gotten into badhabits of not taking care of themselves right. I mean I've pulled my fairShareo Ol niters to make sure we could deliver something to a customer thatwas being unreasonable and we couldn't figure out how to you know, get themoff that unreasonable goal, but I think it's extremely important and powerfulto help people be consciously confident of the now of right now t and theirrole in these in these dynamics. When you go through the book, you've dividedit up into three main areas: personal confidence, social conpidence andleadership. Confidence. An I'm curious. How we arrived at those three well partof it was the first all they build on each other and and thr they're. RoughlyUNISs of the book and the first part about personal confidence. Is You can'tget anywhere do anything unless you're go to take care of yourself? Is Yo gotto be a little selfish bolks on the self and say it's not going to be goodto anybody else. At least Antii take care of myself, and so we focus a loton some basic things. T at would let you do that, and so, once you canmanage stress, ecan prevent stress, you know, learn to understand who you areand what you value then you're going to be healthier right off the bat you'regoing to have higher emotional intelligence and you're also going tohave a foundation which you can build those important skills like beingconmfedent in social situations, with others and being confid as a leader. Sothere's a natural progression to that h. The second part about social confidenceis really can you can you learn to be a good listner? You learn to have goodconversation, a communication with others. And can you truly understandthing because that's going to let you go further in your own job and alsoreduce the stressful nature of things as a stand and the last section aboutleadership. Confidence is really stretch where you get to where you canunderstand, where ther's going to be new opportunities, understand what ittakes to be a champion for causes or for cirections to actually nead byexample, to put things together in terms of able to call psychologicalparty. It was in our term, but it's a theory that weve worked on andelaborated in the book, and it's called many different things iut here today inthe literature about personal grit is popular yea, Moti intelligence is thatde about being self reliant and being you know, secure yourself and andbelieving you can move on and do things and that usually involves leadingothers or please by example, just living that way. Have you guys found us,you do workshops and will talk about that. I've got. That is as a questiontoward the back, but have you found that it's? He requires a differentapproach based on the age range of the people that you have in class or peoplethat maybe you know better at Eq or or have more developdq than other elements.Is there challenges that you're, seeing hat they kind of go across the ages andthe Generationis that may be different? You think there are to some degreethere are certain factors that just...

...lead to people being more able tomanage these kind of complex relationships, and one of those isexperienced right, there's just no substitute for experience and theopportunity to practice things over and over again. You know. We all know thatwe need te thousand hours of practice to become an expert at things andrelation ps are not different than that. But I'll tell you that there are alsosome other factors that probably aren't necessarily related to age orexperience in the workplace, for instance, just the ability to believe that you have an impact in theworld, and this seems to be a psychological traide. If you will,there are people who believe the world does things to them, and there arepeople that believe that they take action and affect the world, and it'sthe people that approach that I mentioned last thatthey believe our actions effecte world. They can actually see themselves asmore hardy, more effective, more able to control situations, and so I dothink that the experience that you gain from doing this over and over againmight give you a little bit of an edge. But of course the problem is, if you'vegot a lot of experience, doing it wrong. All you've done is you've built a badhabit of doing it wrong I'll. Tell you that we probably don't see it breakdownby generational or cohort areas as much as you see other skills breakdown.There are millennials that are actually very, very good at beingpsychologically hardy, and there are some boomers like me who maybe havebuilt some bad habits along the way. So it's it might be a little bit of anedge to the old guys, but not much excellent, and when you work with youknow, classes- and let's say you have somebody who has those bad habits. Howdo you guys go about? I don't want to say breaking down. Let's say werevising. Maybe how how do you help them? You know what what's kind of yourapproach to making sure that they're they're going to come out the otherside and be better prepared. You know Chab when we go into the workshop andit's a mix group anyhow, even if it's the same agency or the same law firm orwhatever it might be, and people are all different. They doit for levels Fsuccess, but we bring up to everyone that everyone's already success us inthat room. You already ar doing a job. You Got Through College, you Didchad todo and we're there to try to give people some suggestions about ways itmight offer them another way to look it life. So we've put a lot out there andthe intention isn't that well, tell you these ten different, wonderful thingsand we'll practice them and all thirty of Youi use all ten OFAN. It's morelike we're going to present to you some the things that workd out for otherpeople and we think they could be very effective depending on your taste andproclivities in directions. You'd like to go so it's very much of US offeringstuff and in addition to whatever they've done, to be successful to wherethey are now. As I mentioned mark, and I both worked in plynical round beforeback in racademic days- is so you often dealg with people that have reachd alevel of discomfort and dysfunction their lives and actually need some helpjust to get back into being able to function in a society. But when I'mworking now in the workshops were dealing with people that are alreadyout and showing that they can be very successful, an effective of what theydo, but they might be taking a bigger burden on it psychologically than Ineed you to do that so we're we come up with suggestions and people pick wherethey like to go. One of the things we do like to do chat is to let peoplesort of discover right. The the socratic method is a terrific teachingmethod, and so what we often do is we basically sort of set it up right. Tellus about your worst client. Oh, I can tell you about that. Client thereterrible and tell us about how that affects you. Oh It's awful! I go home,I don't sleep well, you know I kicked Ti Ooff, whatever okay, so so, ifthat's where we're at, how are you going to get better and when we askthat question often there's a puzzle,...

...look like well, I'm not going to getbetter. It's just going to be that way. I'm just going to have to deal with itand then you ask the obvious question: If there was a way that you couldactually not feel stressed at the end of the day or a way that you couldactually feel like you've had a great day, would you be interested in hearingabout that? You know the classic approach to selling right yeah leadwith the benefit andsoone of the one of the things we try and do is after we've,Ben Eople a chance to kind of tell us there areor stories, we sort of beganto paint a picture of leading it the benefit and then ask them the obviousquestion. Would you like to find out how to be that way? And you know youdon't get a lot of pushback right, people say well sure I'll, listen andsome of the good news is that some of these things are so blatantly obviousthat when you share on them with people that go, Oh yeah, I knew that. I justwasn't doing that, and so it's not that you're giving them great knowledge.They've never had it's just your reminding them to use some skills thatmaybe they've let Laifallo it is that Ou ow the concept of mindfulness thatwe come across in the book, and I very much we see this. You know when we dowork with customers and sales, training and sales and im nothing that we do isrocket science. So there's a lot more science behind what you guys working todo, but in many cases we find it's just they're, not what we call consciouslycompedent they're not being aware. So I'm curious how you guys have built inthe that concept of mindfulness and do you find that walking them through thatdiscovery process? Do you see the light bulb? Go on what kind of reactions doyou you know. It is interesting because- and I thesks part of the reason we'lldo a half day or a full day workshop and because there is a transition, theway the group evolves and- and you know you can imagine this, but people oftencome in first skeptic because they don't know you and, and you know,they're manager. I Dida good idea or this wordshop. And what can youpossibly offer me etcental? You know. So that's usually me in the back of theroom by the way don works like this with positions andother in lawyer groups. You can imagine how they're like Acu Yo Ho pe bring forme, but I don't want to Duspar ta whole group, but but people rightfully justthinking I could be doing work right now. I have a lot to do, and so I thinkit's reinforcing for us to see. Maybe we're imagining this, but, as the daygoes on, you see people slowly, warming up to at least entertaining idyou bringfor and people practice things, and they say their colleagues practicesomething and they see you model something and so little by little Ithink people become more warm to the ideas. The day goes on. Of course,heving lunch in the othe day helps also, but but they I think this. Actually, Ithink, by the end of the day, I think we see these results if we have peopleleaving att least consider some of the things that were presented indisgustand practice, then on their own time in their own pace in their owndirection. They do this on their own. Then that's great. If it's made adifference. In fact, one of the little sneaky psychologist trip that we kindof enjoy becase. It's Anamiale that at the end of the a cession somebody'sdoing stuff- and they say you know this kind of stuff- would work with myclients, but it kind of would work at home too, with my wife and kids and I'mthinking. Well, these these principles are so basic. You know, that's part ofit, and so there theyre Manag they're urning a manage stress. Whereverhappens in their life. You mentioned the mindfulness portion and that is inthe leadership part. So it's towards the end of the day, but we like to doan exercise that we've done over and over and over again, and it never failsto get a good response. We actually have people role, play a scenario andit's a pretty simple scenario of a person who manages a small retail store,who has a customer bringing an item back for return, and so we walk peoplethrough and they take parts, and they read this little playlet of the storemanager, Lin and a lady who never gets a name. I don't know why we never GAVround now i's just Ta lady WHO's returning anitem, and...

...they do it initially in a mindlessfashion. Right and so, of course you can imagine lynd seezs her as a hassleand it's a lot of a problem and everything. And then we have anothergroup read a second play about Lyne. Who is now a mindful manager andinstead of seeing her as a problem, he cees hers an opportunity because She'sbought from their store before she's, moved to a big new house and is buyinga lot of new furniture. And so it's you know it's a classic goofis and gallantkind of comparison. But the funny thing is that we have them read the scriptand at the end will ask the audience what did Lyn say differently and Doy'Ltsay a couple of things. They'll feel like it was very different, but in factit's not and then they'll say what did the Ladi say differently and in factit's exactly the same. But what's changed is what you have a narrator say.This is what's going on inside of Lyn's head and so in one case he sang. Ican't believe she came to my store. What a hassle can't wait to get her outof the door and, in another case he's saying she lives in a brand new house.She buys our furniture, what a gold mind, and so just by hearing Lynthinking in a different way. People get the point that it's not what Lyn issaying he can look like he's being very confident, but if he's telling himselfa story of how horrible it is it's horrible and if he's telling himself astory of how great it is, it's great and mindful people know how to tellthemselves stories that lead to terrific outcomes not to feelingmiserable and beat down at the end of the day, Yeathat the concept that contextconcept of you know: you're, bringing your own context to it is extremelypowerful. It requires that mindfulness and that awareness, though it's a hardthing to it's difficult right. It's a challengefor many of us, I'll, throw my hand up, do and say me too. I mean between theemails and the text, messages and the phone calls and the digital on Slougtthat we all get day eny day out, and then the home life and the dogs and thekids and things like that. How do you help them return to that state whenthey're not in he in the class with you right doing it in a? I don't want tosay the Doctor Seid in because it's I mean it's a workshop, but you know whatI mean when you're in the classroom, it's different. How do you? How do youhelp enable them so that they can return to that spot yeah? And thatreally goes back to that first portion of the workshock, which is the personalconfidence, because in that we teach a couple of skills, one of those skillswe call. Actually we don't call it sopsychologist, call at cognitive for framing and there's an actual writtenexercise that you can do to sit down and look at a circumstance where you'vehad negative feelings and analyze. What was what was I saying to myself? Whatwere my self talks and could I have different ones that would lead todifferent outcomes, and so what we ask people to do as we ask them to just prythis as a homework exercise for a week or a couple of weeks. What you'retrying to do is you're trying to build a separate habit. We've all got habitsof things. We say to ourselves that we grab quickly, and you know, there'stheyre classic ones of you know whyme. Why? Now that's not fair, but if youcan train yourself to say different things, you can actually generate anentirely different set of feelings, so that kind of handing them a tool setthat they can practice with at home is one thing and we all so teach a littlething. We call a selfesteem exercise and it's an amazingly psychobabalishfeeling kind of thing where people say Nice things, but Imean it's a whole series of questions it's in the book and I think peopleight be interested to see it. It's really about a two to three minuteexercise between two people and it's very wrote. You say something and theother person acknowledges. I hear you and you go back and forth and it seemsalmost ridiculous when you read it and...

...then when people use it unfailinglythey report. Oh my gosh. I can't believe how much better I feel, andthey begin doing it not only with people at worth, but with people athome and we've had many many alums of our training sessions come back to usand say the one thing that I keep doing over and over and over again is thislittle two to three minute exercise. You taught us yeah, I think it's so Ithink it's almost poker apiece, so we never reglected. We always think it outthere and I think people when look on the surface it's like. So this takesless time than flossing and it's kind of pain. Tha thing I feel fantastic andthe people I interact with feels fantastic, because you know it's easyto come up and say well, here's solution for losing thirty pounds. Itjust means EAL, don't eat the things you love work out all the time. Youknow you know wow. I don't want to do that and all the other things t a wanto achieve. It usually has a cost er a sacrifice, and this is like this is tooeasy, and so it's a it's a very popular piece and it's definitely psychologylike, and so when you when you've worked with clients and they've. Youknow people have read the book ove taken them through these exercises anddone these workshops, what type of results as AV, the business'sexperience. What have they seen or reported back other than theindividuals and biking that one exercise, I'm kind of curious wha. Whatlarger types of impacts are these ar the providing to these companies yeah?You know, I don't know that we've had a business, actually sit down and saywe're going to measure the Roi, but we have had businesses work to incorporatethe language and the exercises and such into their work and then we'll comeback and we'll check in with them at a six month period to see how prevalentthe use of these tools still is in their practice. And what we found isthat farthe businesses, where they still are practicing it right, they'vemaintained the program they're still using the tool set. They use thelanguage they talked to each other in the ways they learned. I, the workshopunfailingly we'll get a report that it just seems like our clients.Relationships are going better, we're not having as many arguments whe're nothaving as many fights in one case, customer or a client told us. You knowwe are not having the churn in plients that we've had before, and so I don'tthink we can give you solid numbers on that Chad, but I can tell you that whenwe check in and people still are using the program six months or a year later,they unfailingly report that they've had an uptick in the quality of therelationships they have with clients. And, as you know, it's thatrelationship. That really is the Harvenger of whether or not you'regoing to keep doing good work with them. Yeah people buy for people and you staywith people, you trust. So, if you can in help enable, then that that's hugeamount of success for the organizations do you often have the opportunity to goback. So you do the workshop you check in with them is there is ther way tofollow up and maybe take it to the next level, another level of workshop oranother level of engagement that people could your companies could work withyou on absolutely and, as mark mentioned, we'll try to go back atleast a six months, but often will do come back in a month or two, even justas a kind of as a part of doing the workshop and maybe have a brown bag.Lunch with people that are interested becausethere'll, be people that aretrying to get started with some behavior change, and they might havequestions about now that I'm doing this. How do I solve this problem if it comesup, and so it's just a very informal question, an answer part where we'rejust basically coaching and mentioring for that hour or so, and so we'll comeback and do that if it fits a client schedule- and you see people that aretrying to make those transitions and try and develop new repertors forthemselves, and so it's not a mandatory piece. It's not a an allday worship.It's just like I said usually an hour lunch and people are free to ask USquestions, so we try to reinforce that. We've had people that have also askedfor things like this sounds great. I'm doing it. Could you do you have anycoaches in the ear you coal recommend...

...me to so people go in many differentdirections, but I think the key of Thas. All of this is is it. It least lookslike when there's an active workshop, there's an Impetuis for people to makesome change. Some people might be happy with ether ad and they attended andthey listen, and maybe it doesn't change much at all, but usually affectspeople in some way and they'll pick up some some gim from the day. You knowit's interesting that we've had many people, buy the book and learn on theirown and they're that motivated to do that. But often it's a case where amanager sees the problems teyre facing with with client churn or with burn outof good account service people and they'll bring it in as a workshop andso people it's like a launch, Pat, I think for most people rather thanhere's the book with all the answers. Ta Ak at home, and do I on your own,it's more facilitated to be in a group and have that kick off and have some dialogue about it and have someexamples and shows through practice and see their own friends. Try that so thattends to work out. I think pretty well, and we do offer to people theOpportunity To do coaching with Dr Fadorco if they want to follow up onthat in a individual manner. You know it's not unusual, particularly forpeople who are in executive or critical positions to have that kind of coachingsomewhere in their career, and so we have had a handful of requests off ofworkshops for people to get a more ONETO one kind of coaching experience,and is there something that you guys have seen with the companies thatyou've worked with those that you check back in with saying a Mont six months?Where is there some some way they have implemented or folded this into theorganization most effectively some with? Does it become part of onboarding forfuture people? Is there something that you've seen that really impressed youwith how a companyes kind of you know taken it made it their own made surethat they get the most out of it and ar on going basis, yeah one one companythat we workewith the client services group actually took some of theconcepts and built a set of check list and tools that they use whenthey're, basically on boarding new clients right to sort of setexpectations about. This is how we're going to communicate, and you knowthese are the sort of things you can expect from us. These are the kinds of ways that we like to work together andone company even began a process where, because we talk in the book a littlebit about appreciating people's different personality styles and howsome people may be more extroverted, some people may be more introverted andhave different proclivities at one company. There was a request to have UShelp them basically test of only the project teams, but the clients, alongwith it to so that they could understand each other's personality inBinamic, so they can communicate better. It's you know it's a classic kind of Fo Pot to assumesomebody else's motivation from yours. A really solid extravert will, withoutthinking about it, will assume an introvert WHO's sitting in up meetingsaying nothing with their arms cross is upset and not paying attention when, infact, that intrevert is paying careful attention they just don't like to speaktill they have their thoughts fully formed. If you know that about thatperson, then o you see them, you think oh wow they're paying great attention.Terrific. If you assume that they're like you and it's an extrovert, thenyou think oh they're not paying attention and there's something wrong.So we've had one of our clients actually aske us to help them. Do thesekinds of analysis with their clients, Ou Chad, there's two things. I'd add tothat, and one is that- and this is a true I think in most things, but whenwe're brought in often to the degree that the that aure client, that'sbringing us into to a workshop is a...

...champion for these causes themselvesand also emulates and leads by their own example like takes on some of thevocabulary and some of the techniques that we're talking about. It makes abig impact in in that agency itself. As you expected it would so that's one ofthe indicators for us when things are working well and usually they're prettymuch true believers, so that helps out a lot. I don't even if it's not aformerly part of the on boarding. When you see the leader or the manager, it'At's actually examplifying that change, it helps the other thing and eventhough we live in a very digital age and we're all there, I think- and Ithink mark would agree, Wi h, thisit. No, whenever we do work hout, we wepasse out a book for every one of the participants and it's ill fashionedbook. You know it's paper and an stuff like that ow and these things, even though welive in a digital world, it's not a pdf and it has it', something like a lifeof its awn and so there's, there's often thirty or forty books. Now AboutYour Clint is the devil floating around the ate or it'. A someone takes it homeor it's hard to ignore. I mean they can't throw away all of them, so itkind of has a life of its own, and I say that tongue and cheek, becauseweall wll do live in a digital world, but there's something about thereference for a paperprinted book that just hangs on, and it's humorous sayshow often that's been referred to wonder how many people have had it ontheir desk and had a client come in the office and have to explain it like allyou, gotta CI, sit there and says: Wait what you're reading Bush Aat a clientonce that actually asked us, they said we're glad for your workshop and we allunderstand I could just just. Could we call it something different than myplint as the devil work show ntaof course, but because it's you knowe just happend forty fifty people coming in from eating the sention andwhyl can't I can't talk. My client today tell her that I'm going to be inTi miclins e workshop, what workout smaybe the bokwe call the ODHP NTHAT'sexcellent. I mean there is definitely something with you on the on thepaperback right: There's something about not being able to pass arounddigital copies that that I think moveses something for a lot of people.I have dreams and reams a much to my wife's Chagran book shelves filled withBooks Right, but yeah yeit out there's a weight to it. There's a permanence.If you come in and see somebody stumb drive on their Deakh, you don't saywhat fascinating books Ta, how many Ounooaany timesitting on adesk. It's like whwt you at this. Are you reading this for this good it justit's just we have a long history from the Prid word way back to Guttenbergand so we're trying to leverage that for sure eah yeah, I'm with you on that, I'mdefinitelin that l right. So let's take a little change. You perspective here.You both are executives and professionals and then olve world anmcurious to hear forher from both of you. What is you know? You guys areprospects for other people that are looking to sell, sellwares or sellthings. I'm curious what you guys find to be the most effective ways ofselling to you. What do you look for when a salesperson or a marking personcoul totally egages with you guys? What get your attention? What makes youengage? What excites you about that prospit versus o o Crap I've gotanother salesperson. Calling me. I would say that the thing that willcatch me is the recognition that they're interrupting my day. So I like it when an email that comesacross the transim or a call comes across the transom and the personacknowledges. I know I'm interrupting Your Day, but I believe this will be ofinterest to you. Here's why I want that person to have done their homeworkenough to know what I do in my job, what my challenges are in my job andhow what their selling could actually have some benefit to me, and so I thinkthat kind of start with acknowledging that I'm Wright off the bat as thesalesperson interrupting you and asking...

...a favor and getting quickly to what'sin it. For me, as the consumer of that is the thing that will get me to eitherreturn the call or return the email yeah I toldme agro is mark and and I'm blessed with some good friendsand colleagues, and I talk a lot and I write very long emails. That's not whatto do. We get my attention. Okay, so they indulge me that so it's the pointof being succinct and face to faces even fine, but get your get yourelevator speech out pretty quick, because I don't know you and if youwant to make an impression than show that you've done some homework and youcan get right to the point and and give me an opportunity to. I can contact youeasily, but that it's not going to be like. Can I call you every morninguntil you buy my product ithink, it's pretty prettystraightforward. It's a recognition of I'm going to have to interrupt your dayto go ahead and tell you about this, so I'm going to be very respectful of yourtime and your attention. If I can help I'd lete to talk to you excellent, Iolrit well ere we're in the homestretch and so w. Now we have this question. Weask all of our guests and very curious base, especially with your guys,backgrounds and experiences. If you had the opportunity to say to yourprototypical consultant or salesperson, if you had an Opportunito give them oneacceleration insight that you felt would make them more successful in driving the results that thereafter,what would that be and why well mine is probably going to sound a little bitlike a repetition, but do your homework, it's you know put in the time in frontof the selling opportunity so that you know who you're talking to you know whyyou're talking to them you let them know why you're talking to them, I'vehad some sales people who worked for me, who have sort of taken a tack of what Ineed to do is figure out. Did we go to a college together? Did we you know?Are we both playing our kids play soccer? That kind of thing and I'lltell them that's great and that's the kind of thing you'll talk about. Youknow maybe on the first pace, to face or when youyou'll talk about a littlebit down the line, but right when you get started, do your homework reallyknow? Why you're talking to this person and make it clear, whil you're talkingto that person right from the beginning, because the first fifteen seconds isall you've got to either interest them or have them totally turn off and notlisten to anything else. You say yeah that market sounds great and Icertainly agree with that. I would add a couple things. One is of course, usetelephone calls, email, any other kind of marking out reach, but don't pass upany face to face opportunities if you can be alert to those- and I think Ithink a lot of that that critical analysis is happening in face to facesituation can always be possible and it's the most expensive way to gettogether. But when you have something I they come up, it might not be. Yoursales call might be some other things happening, but to go withhat the facewhen you can. The other thing is to in that situation, have your homewor doneand be succinct about your value proposition, but come with ears openand really try to listen in fact ask it more like? Would you indulge me, thehonor of telling me a little bit about Ha what's concerned for you and min help, because I've found it goodthat if I'm allowed to talk just like when I'm thinking my talk, my prospectsI'd Le Rather have them the opportunity to actually speak to me about what'sgoing on excellent yeah, great insights from both you? Thank you very much forthat. So if people hat are listening to this, podcast are interested in pickingup a copy of the book. What's the easiest way to do that? Well, right now I would go to my clientas the DEVILCOM. It's a very humble website. We are psychologist people,web developers, okay and a lot of our WORKFACEO PACE, but thebook is available. Hardbacker soft get. My client is the DEVILCOM and that'sthat's probably the Molt staightforward...

...way to do that, and is there a adifferent way or a better way of connecting with you guys individually?If somebody had questions about something they've heard or someone 'vetalked about on the podcast and they wanted to reach out to you and continuethe conversation is her a preferred way for that to happen. Well, the emailsgreat and the emails on the website and it's a steve at Fedorco, mckinneycom and markat FIDORCA mckinneycom, so it's kind of our last names and it's Sus, Our Name,Stephen Mark Excellen, t's, all t e website, yeah, axell tel. Why greatly?Thank you again for the time today. This has been excellent for those thathave enjoyed the podcast. Please take a moment to review it on Itune shirt withyour friends, families and coworkers help us get the word out. We do this for you, so we also want tohear back from you so comments. Please send them our way. I hadly recommendeveryone go out and get a copy of the book. If, for nothing else, the coverart is amazing, as well as what you will find inside the book, please don'thesitate to reach out to Stephen More if theyve, very gracious with ther time,and we greatly appreciate appreciate it. So, gentlemen, again thank you anduntil we talk next time best of luck out there hey thank you. Chi You've been listening to the BTBrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in Itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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