The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Mark McKinney & Steve Fedorko on “My Client Is the Devil:” How to Stop Complaining and Get a Better Perspective

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

There’s never a shortage of people complaining about their clients.

You can get stuck in that kind of thinking, but there is another way of looking at things. It all comes down to the way you think about yourself and your client. After all, you can’t do a great job taking care of clients until you’ve taken care of yourself.

Today’s guests are Mark McKinney, VP of Client Development at Bottle Rocket Studios and Steve Fedorko, both authors of the book My Client Is the Devil (And Other Myths). They’re both psychologists who happened to work in marketing agencies, so they put their expertise together. They left academia to learn and teach how much psychology is used in business everywhere.

There are a lot of books on helping clients, but not a lot on how you help yourself get better at helping clients. This is one of them.

... Your answer is value prime solutions, a sales training and marketing optimization company leveraging the value selling framework. visit www dot value prime solutionscom and start accelerating your results. You're listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience. Thanks for joining us today. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. If you have to jump earlier, not able to listen to the entire show, please visit the website be to be Rev exactcom you able to find a link to today's interview, as well as others we've conducted, in addition to some blog posts and other highly relevant contents we've put up there to help enable your ability to beat your targets. I believe today's conversation is going to provide a great deal of value to those that are in the professional services arena, sales professionals who target enterprise type deals, where complex relationship dynamics of the norm. I am lucky to have with me Mark mckinney and Steve Fedorco, authors of my client is the devil and other myths. Both our psychologists with PhDs from the University of Texas at Arlington, and it's been a great deal of their careers in professional services. Today, mark is the svp of marketing and corporate strategy at Bottle Rocket Studios, the Digital Agency based in Dallas, and Steve is founder of the fedorco Group and routinely consults with fortune five hundred clients. Gentlemen, I want to thank you again for your time today. I greatly appreciate it looking forward to our discussion. As way of getting started, how about a about a little background. How did you two meet and what was it in your careers that made you realize there was a need for a book like this? Well, this is Steve and mark and I both met in graduate school. Both have big interests in psychology and it was a natural affiliation there and a lot of the same interest, and we went on afterwards to actually work in acadeem for a while, which was where we're intended at first, but it says compelling reasons from friends of our segetic come into business because, thank you, psychology everywhere. And so we spent time in a professional services round, everything from marketing and AD agencies to corporate training to it. And last year's are spent in the marketing arena and we saw a lot of the same issues that were happening with professional services like in marketing. That had to do with the stuff we'd learned in psychology and we thought we could do a lot of help there. In fact, we were doing it kind of impromptu, as just being psychologist to happen to work in marketing agencies, and so we decided to put the book together and offer it as workshop and also, you know, one arm astruction. So practicing psychologist that transitioned into professional services types of arena. It would be. Like I said, we left academ years ago and which is a very nice life by the way, by itself, great opportunity to work. Who Don't realize how much psychologists we use the business everywhere, and this particular aspect was a nice overlay of our experience in that field as well. As what we could offer being psychologist excellent, excellent. With the transition difficult for people in business to kind of accept. Right, you don't think of psychologists typically when you think of, you know, big business. There's obviously a lot of psychology that goes on, but I'm curious was there as you made that transition, did you have to do a lot of explaining why psychologists were leaving academia? This is mark. We didn't have to do a lot of explaining because, fortunately both of us, the first step out of academics and into the business world was into a business that was a multimedia training business and training education psychology have a fairly natural overlap and so people weren't all that surprised. But...

...what would happen sometimes as we get in introduced to clients and it would be will I, we'd like you to meet Dr Fedorco or Dr mckinney, and that would lead to classic questions like well, what's your doctor, and in you know? And we would say psychology, and people would say, Oh, you must be analyzing me, and classic retort on that is only if you're paying a hundred dollars. Right, I don't suppose to the one of you guys are poker players. Probably a little bit too much information on myself, but my therapist is actually a poker player. I've always thought the psychologist had an uneven edge and playing poker. Not that that's anything you have to worry about, but it was the analysis had comment made me think about that. So you guys were in academy together, transitioned out, did some training. I'm curious when did you realize there was a need for this book? I was working as the Managing Director of Digital Marketing Agency and my account services people were in my office really almost daily and it would be all the clients doing this terrible I can't believe they're doing this. Why are they picking on me? And it just really became kind of a real repetitive kind of activity and I thought, you know, this is an interesting question because while the client maybe is not doing what you want them to do, they're also paying us a lot of money and so it's really not okay to tell them to, you know, get off somewhere. So I started thinking these people have a pretty stressful life in marketing. These are often fairly young people. That might be their first second job out of college, and I was just noticing that they didn't have any skill set or any tool set to deal with this other than to complain to other people and then go out and drink after work, and both of those are pretty good, but they wear it then after a while. And and so I started thinking maybe some of those things that I used to teach patients, you know literally patients in in patient and outpatient settings, could be applicable to these people who are having a very stressful day. Often it's interesting and professional services I've been in for a lot of years and I think if you ask any professional services person who the worst client was, they'll all, let me tell you right there's always one that seems to scar them more than others. And the the book was interesting because it's, you know, we hear a lot of people talk about how you help the clients, but there hasn't been as much focus on how you helped yourself become better at helping the clients right, which is which was one of the things that really spoke to me about the book. I'm curious, though, what made you guys settle on the title. Well, I think that's a great question, and part of it is that we literally would hear this from people who worked with it. Actually would say, you know, at client from Hell or my client is the devil asked me to do this. So we didn't have to look far from it and it just pointed out to us how how really in French that belief can be. And these people are particularly stressed because they have a client to please, they have teams that they work with that often they aren't direct managers of there just working with those people to coordinate their work. They got their own manager. Often it's a small ragency, there's also an owner around, so they get pulled in every direction. So they have limited amount of authority but a lot of responsibility. So that kind of came naturally. But we wanted to play on the old part of you know, it's in the eyether beholder that they were not so much disturbed by the events of the world but the view we take it as and I know there's nothing new to mark and Steve in terms of that. That's very old psychology, even philosophy, back thousands of years, but it's very true and it's easy when to twenty your first jobs, you have a big, demanding folio of clients, to forget that and to and and re really stressed about things, and we saw this all the time with people, especially when it had long term relationships with clients, and they're actually not taking care of themselves very well. They're trying very hard to please everybody and you know you can't really do a great job until you've taking care of yourself well to I'll tell you, Chad. Interestingly, we have to always point out the second title...

...because we'll get people who'll see the title of the book, My client is a devil, and they'll immediately begin Oh, I know exactly what you mean. I've got one just like that. We have to point out notice that it says and other myths. Yeah, I got to add this to week. Our workshops for typically half day or a day and we clearly spend what about twenty thirty minutes at the beginning, near the beginning of each workshop, hearing the stories from others about why your clients are there's never a shortage, we have to cut it short, but we get through that so that people can get that part out and then we spend the bulk of the workshop, of course, focusing on you know, there's really another way to look at things and there's ways, many ways, good ways to take care of yourself as you go through this very demanding job. Yeah, becomes a Cathartic, almost purging. Right, get it out of the way so you can get to the point where you can help them. Them you got to start by letting them admit that they do have a client. That is the devil and getting that rather than saying what's all been a myth, let us tell you stuff. So it works that way. Yeah, and you mentioned, you know, that it was kind of older's older psychology or philosophy has been around for years. But I mean there's a huge resurgence in this right now and I think some of it, and you guys tell me if I'm wrong, but I see it a lot with clients that are struggling with integrating millennials into the workforce, or you have people that have been doing it for enough years that they've gotten into bad habits of not taking care of themselves. Right. I mean I've pulled my fair share of all nighters to make sure we could deliver something to a customer that was being unreasonable and we couldn't figure out how to, you know, get them off that unreasonable goal. But I think it's extremely important and powerful to help people be consciously competent of the now, of right now, that and their role in these in these dynamics. When you go through the book, you've divided it up into three main areas personal competent social competence and leadership competence. I'm curious how we arrive at those three. Well, part of it was the first. All, they build on each other and and they're they're roughly units of the book. And the first part about personal confidence is you can't get anywhere, do anything unless you're going to take care of yourselves. And so I got to be a little selfish, focus on the self and say I'm not going to be good anybody else at least it's I take care of myself. And so we focus a lot on some basic things and would let you do that. And so once you can manage stress, even prevent stress, you know, learn to understand who you are and what you value, then you're going to be healthier right off the bat. You're going to have higher emotional intelligence and you're also going to have a foundation which you can build those important skills like being competent in social situations with others and being competent as a leader. So there's a natural progression to that. The second part about social competence is really can you can you learn to be a good listener, you learn to have good conversational communication with others and can you truly understand thing, because that's going to let you go further your own job and also reduce the stressful in nature of things as a stands. And the last section about leadership competence is really a stretch where you get to where you can understand where they're ben new opportunities, understand what it takes to to be a champion for causes or for directions, to actually lead by example, to put things together in terms of being what we call psychologically party. It was in our term, but it's a theory that we've worked on and elaborated in the book and it's called many different things out here today in the literature about personal grid is popular part multiple intelligence. It's IDA about being self reliant and being, you know, secure yourself and and believing you can move on and do things, and that usually involves leading others or leads by example. Just living that way. Have you guys found, as you do workshops and we'll talk about that. I've got that as a question towards the back. But have you found that it's the requires a different approach based on the age range of the people that you have in class or people that maybe you know better at Eq or have more developed q than other elements? Is Their ch challenges that you're seeing that kind of go across the ages and the generations that may be different. Think there are to some degree. There are certain factors that just lead to people being more able to manage these kind...

...of complex relationships, and one of those is experienced right. There's just no substitute for experience and the opportunity to practice things over and over again. You know. We all know that we need ten thousand hours of practice to become an expert at things, and relationships are not different than that. But I'll tell you that there are also some other factors that probably aren't necessarily related to age or experience in the workplace, for instance, just the ability to believe that you have an impact in the world, and this seems to be a psychological trait, if you will. There are people who believe the world does things to them and there are people that believe that they take action and affect the world. And it's the people that approach that I mentioned last, that they believe actions affect the world, that can actually see themselves as more hearty, more effective, more able to control situations. And so I do think that the experience that you gain from doing this over and over again might give you a little bit of an edge. But of course the problem is if you've got a lot of experience doing it wrong, all you've done is you've built a bad habit of doing it wrong. I'll tell you that we probably don't see it breakdown by generational or cohort areas as much as you see other skills break down. There are millennials that are actually very, very good at being psychologically hardy and there are some boomers like me who maybe have built some bad habits along the way. So it's a it might be a little bit of an edge to the old guys, but not much excellent. And when you work with you know classes, and let's say you have somebody who has those bad habits, how do you guys go about, I don't want to say breaking down, let's say we're revising maybe. How do you help them? You know what what's kind of your approach to making sure that they're they're going to come out the other side and be better prepared. You know, Chad, when we go into the workshop and it's a mixed group anyhow, even if it's the same agency or the same law firm or whatever it might be, and people are all different, they've different levels success, but we bring up to everyone that everyone's already success is in that room. You already are doing a job. You got to college, you did you Chad to do, and we're there to try to give people some suggestions about ways it might offer them another way to look in life. So we put a lot out there and if the intention isn't that, will tell you these ten different wonderful things and we'll practice them and all thirty of you will use all ten of them. It's more like we're going to present to you some things that worked well for other people and we think they could be very effective, depending on your taste and proclivities in directions you'd like to go. So it's very much of US offering stuff and in addition to whatever they've done to be successful to where they are now. As I mentioned, mark and I both worked in clinical around before, back in academic days, and so you often dealing with people that it reached a level of discomfort and dysfunction in their lives and actually need some help just to get back into being able to function in a society. But when we're working now in the workshops for dealing with people that are already out and showing that they can be very successful and effective of what they do, but they might be taking a bigger burden on a psychologically than it need you to do that. So we're we come up with suggestions and people pick where they like to go. One of the things we do like to do Chad, is to let people sort of discover right the the socratic method is a terrific teaching method, and so what we often do is we basically sort of set it up. Right, tell us about your worst client. Oh, I can tell you about that client. They're terrible, and tell us about how that affects you all. It's awful, I go home, I don't sleep well, you know, I kick the dog whatever. Okay. So so if that's where we're at, how are you going to get better? And when we ask that question often there's a puzzle. Look...

...like, well, I'm not going to get better. It's just going to be that way. I'm just going to have to deal with it. And then you ask the obvious question. If there was a way that you could actually not feel stressed at the end of the day or a way that you could actually feel like you've had a right day, would you be interested in hearing about that? You know, the classic approach to selling right lead with the benefit, and so one of the one of the things we try and do is, after we've been people a chance to kind of tell us there are stories, we sort of began to paint a picture of leading the benefit and then ask them the obvious question, would you like to find out how to be that way? And you know you you don't get a lot of pushback right people will say, well, sure, I'll listen. And some of the good news is that some of these things are so blatantly obvious that when you share them with people, they go, Oh, yeah, I knew that, I just wasn't doing that. And so it's not that you're giving them great knowledge they've never had. It's just your reminding them to use some skills that maybe they've let lay fallow. And is that, you know, the concept of mindfulness that we come across from the book and very much we see this, you know, when we do work with customers and sales training and sales and newment, and nothing that we do is rocket science. So there's a lot more science behind what you guys are working to do. But in many cases we find it's just they're not what we call consciously confident, they're not being aware. So I'm curious how you guys have built in the that concept of mindfulness and do you find that walking them through that discovery process, do you see the light bulb go on? What kind of reactions to you? You know, it is interesting because, and I guess part of the reason we'll do a half day or a full day workshop and because there is a transition that at the way the group evolves and and you know you can imagine this, but people often come in very skeptic as they don't know you and and you know their management. It's a good idea for this workshop. And what can you possibly offer me et cent for? You know saws. That's usually me in the back of the room. By the way, again done works like this with physicians and other lawyer groups. You can imagine how they're like, what could you possibly bring for me? But I don't want to spears the whole group, but but people rightfully just thinking I could be doing work right now. I have a lot to do, and so I think it's reinforcing for us to see. Maybe we're imagining this, but it's the day goes on, you see people slowly warming up to at least entertaining idea you bring forth and people practice things and they see their colleagues practice something, they see you model something, and so little by little, I think people become more warm to the ideas the day goes on. Of course, having lunch in a little day helps also, but but they I think this actually I think by the end of the day, I think we see these results. If we have people leaving that at least consider some of the things that were presented in disgusted and practice then on their own time, in their own pace and their own direction. They do this on their own, then that's great. If it's made a difference. In fact, one of the little sneaky psychologist trip that we kind of enjoy is it's inamable that at the end of a session somebody's doing stuff and they say, you know, this kind of stuff would work with my clients, but it kind of would work at home too, with my wife and kids, and I'm thinking, well, these principles are so basic, you know. That's part of it. And so they're they're manage, they're running to manage stress where it happens in their life. You mentioned the mindfulness portion, and that is in the leadership of part. So it's towards the end of the day, but we like to do an exercise that we've done over and over and over again and it never fails to get a good response. We actually have people role play a scenario, and it's a pretty simple scenario of a person who manages a small retail store who has a customer bringing an item back for return. And so we walk people through and they take parts and they read this little playlet of the store manager, Lynn, and a lady who never gets a name. I don't know why we never gave her an he's just the lady who's returning an item and we they do it initially in a mindless fashion right,...

...and so of course you can imagine Lynn sees her as a hassle and it's a lot of a problem and everything. And then we have another group read a second play about Lynn, who is now a mindful manager and instead of seeing her as a problem, he sees her as an opportunity because she's bought from their store before, she's moved to a big new house and is buying a lot of new furniture, and so it's, you know, it's a classic goofus and gallant kind of comparison. But the funny thing is that we have them read the script and at the end will ask the audience what did Lynn say differently, and they'll say a couple of things. They'll feel like it was very different, but in fact it's not. And then they'll say what did the ladies say differently, and in fact it's exactly the same. But what's changed is what you have a narrator say. This is what's going on inside of Lyn's head. And so in one case he's saying, I can't believe she came to my store, what a hassle. Can't wait to get her out of the door. And in another case he's saying she lives in a brand new house, she's buys our furniture. What a goal my so just by hearing Lynn thinking in a different way. People get the point that it's not what Lynn is saying. He can look like he's being very competent, but if he's telling himself a story of how horrible it is, it's horrible, and if he's telling himself a story of how great it is, it's great. And mindful people know how to tell themselves stories that lead to terrific outcomes, not to feeling miserable and beat down at the end of the day. Yeah, that that concept, that context concept of you know, you're bringing your own context to it, is extremely powerful. It requires that mindfulness and that awareness, though it's a hard thing to it's difficult. Right, it's a challenge for many of us. I'll throw my hand up to and say me too. I mean between the emails and the text messages, in the phone calls and the digital on slot that we all get day in and day out, and then the home life and the dogs and the kids and things like that. How do you help them return to that state when they're not in the in the class with you? Right, doing it in a I don't want to say the doctor setting because it's the mean it's a workshop. But you know what I mean when you're in a classroom it's different. How do you how do you helpe enable them so that they can return to that spot? Yeah, and that really goes back to that first portion of the workshop, which is the personal competence, because in that we teach a couple of skills. One of those skills we call, actually we don't call its. Psychologists call it cognitive reframing, and there's an actual written exercise that you can do to sit down and look at a circumstance where you've had negative feelings and analyze what was what was I saying to myself? What were my self talks, and could I have different ones that would lead to different outcomes? And so what we ask people to do is we ask them to just pry this as a homework exercise for a week or a couple of weeks. What you're trying to do is you're trying to build a separate habit. We've all got habits of things we say to ourselves that we grab quickly and you know, there's their classic ones of you know, why me? Why? Now? That's not fair. But if you can train yourself to say different things, you can actually generate an entirely different set of feelings. So that kind of handing them a tool set that they can practice with at home is one thing. And we all so teach a little thing we call a self esteem exercise and it's an amazingly psychobabblish feeling kind of thing, the of where people say Nice things, but I mean it's a whole series of questions. It's in the book and I think people might be interested to see it. It's really about a two to three minute exercise between two people and it's very wrote you you say something and the other person acknowledges I hear you and you go back and forth and it seems almost ridiculous when you read...

...it. And then when people use it, unfailingly they report, oh my gosh, I can't believe how much better I feel, and they begin doing it not only with people at work but with people at home. And we've had many, many alums of our training sessions come back to us and say the one thing that I keep doing over and over and over again is this little two to three minute exercise you taught us. Yeah, I think it's so I think it's almost popular piece. So we never neglect it. We always bring it out there and I think people when when look on the surface, it's like, so, this takes less time than flossing and it's kind of pain nothing. I feel fantastic in the people interact with. feels fantastic because, you know, it's easy to come up and say, well, here's a solution for losing thirty pounds. It just means eat all, don't eat the things you love, work out all the time. You know, you know, wow, I don't want to do that. And all the other things want to achieve it usually has a cost or a sacrifice and this is like this is too easy. And so it's a it's a very popular piece and it's definitely psychology life. And so when you when you've worked with clients and they've you know, people have read the book, you've taken him through these extra size isn't done these workshops. What type of results, as have the businesses experience? What have they seen or reported back? Other than the individuals and liking that one exercise, I'm kind of curious with larger types of impacts of these providing these companies. Yeah, you know, I don't know that we've had a business actually sit down and say we're going to measure the Roi, but we have had businesses work to incorporate the language and the exercises and such into their work and then we'll come back and we'll check in with them at a sixmonth period to see how prevalent the use of these tools still is in their practice. And what we found is that far the businesses where they still are practicing it right, they've maintained the program, they're still using the tool set, they use the language, they talked to each other in the ways they learned to the workshop, unfailingly will get a report that it just seems like our clients relationships are going better. We're not having as many arguments, we're not having as many fights. In one case customer or a client told us, you know, we are not having the churn in clients that we've had before, and so I don't think we can give you solid numbers on that Chad. But I can tell you that when we check in and people still are using the program six months or a year later, they unfailingly report that they've had an uptick in the quality of the relationships they have with clients and, as you know, it's that relationship that really is the harbinger of whether or not you're going to keep doing good work with them. People buy from people and you stay with people you trust. So if you can I be helping able, then that that's huge amount of success for the organizations. Do you often have the opportunity to go back? So you do the workshop, you check in with them. Is there is there a way to follow up and maybe take it to the next level, another level of workshop or another level of engagement that people could your companies could work with you on? Absolutely and, as mark mentioned, we'll try to go back at least as six months, but often we'll do come back in a month or two even just as a kind of as a part of doing the workshop and maybe have a brown bag lunch with people that are interested, because there there'll be people that are trying to get started with some behavior change and they might have questions about now that I'm doing this, how do I solve this problem if it comes up, and so it's just a very informal question and answer part where we're just basically coaching and mentoring for that hour or so, and so we'll come back and do that if it fits a client schedule and you see people that are trying to make those transitions and trying to develop new repertoires for themselves. And so it's not a mandatory piece. It's not an all day workshop. It's just, like I said, usually an hour lunch and people are free to ask US questions. So we try to reinforce that. We've had people that have also asked for things like this, sounds great, I'm doing it. Could you? Do you have any coaches in the...

...ere he could recommend me to. So people go in many different directions, but I think the key of that, all of this is is it. It least looks like when there's an active workshop, there's an impetus for people to make some change. Some people might be happy with our other're at and they attendant, they listen and maybe it doesn't change much at all, but usually it affects people in some way and they'll pick up some some gym from the day. You know, it's interesting that we've had many people buy the book and learn on their own and there that motivated to do that. But often it's a case where a manager sees the problems are facing with with client churn or with burnout of good account service people and they'll bring it in as a workshop and so people it's like a launch pad, I think for most people, rather than here's the book with all the answers, take at home and do it on your own, it's more facilitated to be in a group and have that kickoff and have some dialog about it and have some examples and shows through practice and see their own friends try that. So that tends to work out, I think, pretty well, and we do offer to people the Opportunity To do coaching with Dr Fedorko if they want to follow up on that in an individual manner. You know, it's not unusual, particularly for people who are in executive or critical positions, to have that kind of coaching somewhere in their career, and so we have had a handful of requests off of workshops for people to get a more one to one kind of coaching experience. And it is there's something that you guys have seen with the companies that you've worked with, those that you check back in with, say in a month, six months, where is there's some some way they have implemented or folded this into the organization most effectively. Some with does it become part of the onboarding for future people. Is there something that you've seen that really impressed you with how a company's kind of, you know, taking it, made it their own, made sure that they get the most out of it and an ongoing basis? Yeah, one, one company that we worked with the Client Services Group, actually took some of the concepts and built a set of checklists and tools that they use when they're basically on boarding new clients right to sort of set expectations about this is how we're going to communicate and, you know, these are the sort of things you can expect from us. These are the kinds of ways that we like to work together. And one company even began a process where, because we talked in the book a little bit about appreciating people's different personality styles and how some people maybe more extroverted, some people may be more introverted and have different proclivities, at one company there was a request to have US help them basically test not only the project teams but the clients along with it too, so that they could understand each other's personality and dynamic so they could communicate better. It's, you know, it's a classic kind of Faux Pat to assume somebody else's motivation from yours. A really solid extrovert will, without thinking about it, will assume an introvert who's sitting in a meeting saying nothing with their arms cross is upset and not paying attention, when in fact that introvert is paying careful attention. They just don't like to speak till they have their thoughts fully formed. If you know that about that person, then you you see them, you think, Oh wow, they're paying great attention, terrific. If you assume that they're like you and it's an extrovert, then you think, oh, they're not paying attention and there's something wrong. So we've had one of our clients actually asked us to help them do these kinds of analyzes with their clients. Chad, there's two things I'd add to that, and one is that in this is a true I think in most things, but when we're brought in, often to the degree that the that our client that's bringing us into a workshop is a champion for these causes themselves and also emulates and leads by their own example, like...

...takes on some of the vocabulary and some of the techniques that we're talking about. It makes a big impact in in that agency itself, as you expected it would. So that's one of the indicators for us when things are working well, and usually they're pretty much true believers. So that helps out a lot. I don't even if it's not a formally part of the onboarding when you see the leader or the manager that's actually exemplifying that change, it helps. The other thing and even though we live at a very digital age and we're all there, I think, and I think mark would agree with this, Shit whenever we do workshop we pass out a book for every one of the participants and it's the old fashioned book, you know, it's paper and stuff like that around and these things, even though we live in a digital world. It's not a pdf and it has something like a life of its own, and so there's there's often thirty or forty books now about your client. Is the devil floating around the ages desk or it's a someone takes it home or it's hard to ignore. I mean they can't throw away all of them, so it kind of has a life of its own. And I say that tongue in cheek, because we all will do live in a digital world, but there's something about the reference for a paper printed book that just hangs on and it's humorous. Does how often that's been referred to? I wonder how many people have had it on their desk and had a client come in the office and have to explain it. They also you got a client sit here says wait, what you're reading books? That had a client wants that actually asked us. They said we're glad for your workshop and we all understand it. Could just just could we call it something different than my client is the devil workshop. We don't call it that, of course, but because it's you know, you just have a forty fifteen people coming in for a meeting, the session and we can't I can't talk my client today. I tell her that I'm going to be in as my client, as the devil workshop, with workouts. So maybe the book. It works for a while, but we call the workshop something that's excellent. I mean there is definitely something. I'm with you on the on the paperback right. There's something about not being able to pass around digital copies that I think loses something for a lot of people. I have reams and reams that, much to my wife's Chagrin, book shelves filled with books, right. But yeah, yeah, it's about it. There's a weight to it, there's a permanence. If you come in and see somebody thumb drive on their desk, you don't say, well, what fascinating books. How many you know any time setting on a desk, it's like or to you this or you reading this or just good, it just it's just we have a long history from the print world, way back to Gutenberg, and so we're trying to leverage that. For sure. I yeah, I'm with you on that. I'm definitely on that. All right. So let's take a little change of perspective here. You both are executives and professionals and man out the world. I'm curious to hear hear from both of you. What is you know, you guys are prospects for other people that are looking to sell, sell where's or sell things. I'm curious what you guys find to be the most effective ways of selling to you. What do you look for when a salesperson or a marketing person consult engages with you guys? What get your attention? What makes you engage? What excite you about that prospect versus? Oh, Oh, crap, I've got another salesperson. Calm me. I would say that the thing that will catch me is the recognition that they're interrupting my day. So I like it when an email that comes across the transom or a call comes across the transom and the person acknowledges I know I'm interrupting your day, but I believe this will be of interest to you. Here's why. I want that person to have done their homework enough to know what I do in my job, what my challenges are in my job and how what they're selling could actually have some benefit to me. And so I think that kind of start with acknowledging that I'm right off the bat as the salesperson interrupting you and asking a favor...

...and getting quickly to what's in it for me as the consumer of that is the thing that will get me to either return the call or return the email. Yeah, I I totally agree with mark and and I'm blessed with some good friends and colleagues and I talk a lot and I write very long emails. That's not what to do get my attention. Okay, so they they indulge me that. So it's the point of being succinct and facetoface is even fine, but get your get your elevator speech out pretty quick, because I don't know you and if you want to make an impression and show that you've done some homework and you can get right to the point and and give me an opportunity to I can contact you easily, but that it's not going to be like, can I call you every morning until you buy my product? I think it's pretty pretty straightforward. It's a recognition of I'm going to have to interrupt your day to go ahead and tell you about this. So I'm going to be very respectful of your time and your attention. If I can help, I'd love to talk to you. Excellent, Nice. All right. Well, we're in we're in the home stretch, and so we now we have this question we ask all of our guests and very curious bas especially with your guys backgrounds and experiences, if you had the opportunity to say to your prototypical consultants or salesperson, if you had an opportunity give them one acceleration insight that you felt with make them more successful in driving the results that they're after, what would that be? In why well, mine is probably going to sound a little bit like a repetition, but do your homework. It's, you know, put in the time in front of the selling opportunity so that you know who you're talking to, you know why you're talking to them. You let them know why you're talking to them. I've had some salespeople who worked for me who have sort of taken attack of what I need to do is figure out, did we go to a college together? Did we you know, are we both playing? Saw Our kids play soccer? That kind of thing, and I'll tell them that's great and that's the kind of thing you'll talk about. You know, maybe on the first spacetoface or when you're you'll talk about a little bit down the line, but right when you get started, do your homework. Really know why you're talking to this person and make it clear why you're talking to that person right from the beginning, because the first fifteen seconds is all you've got to either interest them or have them totally turn off and not listen to anything else. You say yeah, that Mark. That sounds great and I certainly agree with that. I would add a couple things. One is, of course, use telephone calls email any other kind of marketing outreach, but don't pass up any facetoface opportunities if you can be alert to those, and I think. I think a lot of that. That critical analysis is happening in facetoface situation can always be possible and it's the most expensive way to get together. But when you have something like to come up, it might not be your sales called, it might be some other things happening, but to go with it the face when you can. The other thing is to in that situation, have your homewor done and be succinct about your value proposition, but come with ears open and really try to listen. In fact, ask it more like, would you indulter me the honor of talking me a little bit about what's concerned for you, and I might help because I've found a good that if I'm allowed to talk, just like when I'm thinking, when I talk to my prospects, I'd love rather have them the opportunity to actually speak to me about what's going on. Excellent, great insights from both you. Thank you very much for that. So if people are listening to this podcasts are interested in picking up a copy of the book, what's the easiest way to do that? Well, right now I would go to my client is the DEVILCOM. It's a very humble website. We are psychologist people, web developers, okay, and a lot of our work facetoface. But the book is available hardback or saw get. My client is the devilcom, and that's that's probably the most straightforward way...

...to do that. And is there a different way or a better way of connecting with you guys individually if somebody had questions about something they've heard or some we've talked about on the podcast and they wanted to reach out to you and continue the conversation as there a preferred way for that to happen? Well, the emails great, and the emails on the website and it's a steve at Fedorca mckinneycom and mark at Fedorca mckinneycom. So it's kind of our last names and it's our our names, Stephen, mark. Excellent. It's all the website. Yeah, excellent, John, what I greatly thank you again for the time today. This has been excellent. For those that have enjoyed the podcast, please take a moment to review it on Itunes, share with your friends, families and Co workers help us get the word out. We do this for you, so we also want to hear back from you. So comments, please send them our way. Highly recommend everyone go out and get a copy of the book, If for nothing else, the cover art is amazing, as well as what you will find inside the book. Please don't hesitate to reach out to Stephen Mark. They've very gracious with her time and we greatly appreciately appreciate it. So, gentlemen, again, thank you and until we talked next time, best of luck out there. Hey, thank you, Chid. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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