The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 1 month ago

How to Build Trust through Buyer-Obsession with Moeed Amin

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Offering Amazon vouchers?

Trying to book in the follow-up call before the first call has even ended?

Booking a demo for a company that you just want to sell to?

Forget about gimmicks, techniques, or maneuvers. Effective selling is actually much simpler… and the secret lies in neuroscience.

To share more, we’re joined by Moeed Amin, Director & Founder of Proverbial Door, a consultancy that helps B2B companies and sales professionals improve their performance by a minimum of 50% in six month. We cover the role of trust, obsession and neuroscience in sales.

Join us as we discuss:

  • What makes trust so impactful in the sale process
  • Why you need to be buyer-obsessed
  • The 7 characteristics of a trustworthy person   

Now that you know the power of trust and how to build it… it’s time to learn how to build authenticity and maximise the return on your content marketing, check out the full list of episodes here: The B2B Revenue Executive Experience.

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You're listening to the B two B revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies, were tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two one. Welcome everyone to the B Two b revenue executive experience. I'm your host, Lisa Shnaire, and I'm joined today by my co host, Carlos Noche, and today we're talking about trust, obsession and neuroscience in sales, specifically why we need to earn trust, be customer obsessed and the neuroscience behind why change is so hard, and to help us. Today we have MoD amen, our director and founder of the proverbial door, a consultancy dedicated to helping B two B companies and sales professional really improved sales performance by a minimum of in just six months. So we're going to test that out well. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome to the show. Yeah, great being on the show and thank you for having me on. I have to say, though, just as a caveat that minimum of a lot of that has to do with the clients themselves, obviously, but you can get those results and I've seen them. So yeah, it's interesting that you caught that. Well, we're excited to hear more about it. But before we jump into the topic of the day, we like to start with a question that provides some value to our audience at the beginning of every episode and help them understand you as a person a bit better. So what is something you're passionate about which those who only know you through work would be surprised to know? That's an interesting question. So completely non work related. Something I'm passionate about. I love reading fantasy novels and I was told when I was young that I would grow out of that when I was about thirteen, and decades later that hasn't happened. So I don't know if that's because I'm going against the grain or I'm still immature, but I love fantasy novels. So Robert Jordan, David Gemmel, Abercrombie, all of them. And what's interesting is certain authors I've found, actually I've learned a huge amount around the theory of leadership and certain techniques and tools that I didn't even know existed. Actually, I first learned them by reading those novels. So I'll give you an example. I don't know if you have ever in a debating society, I was when I was young, and there's a technique. I come with what it's officially called, but there's a technique where you have person a that's staunchly for a particular topic and person be who's tortunally against that. But there's a technique where you would basically say, and obviously have to trust both of these individuals, where you say, okay, well, personally you're for it, I want you to argue with your heart and soul against and person be who's against, I want you to argue heart and soul for. And that technique is incredibly powerful for understanding the other side and empathizing and really connecting with the other side and just getting that appreciation of the other person's perspective. No, I didn't know that that was an official technique of some kind, like a a powerful one as well, apparently, but I learned about that through the story one of the books that I read in the fancy novel so yeah, that's I don't know if that's interesting. It's interesting to me, hopefully, but that is something that people in a work setting wouldn't know necessarily know about me. Well, I think it's interesting. I have not personally been in any debate thing, but I was married. So similar but different. How about we started out and we tell us a little bit about the proverbial door. What got you there? How did you arrive at this point in your career? Give us a little background. Yeah, let's start with why I created a proverbial door. I created a proverbial door because I was pretty much sick and fed up of the status quot around sales approaches. I mean really fed up with it. I made a successful career for myself by going against conventional wisdom and I remember someone, I can't remember who it was now, but someone told me that if you want to achieve over performance compared to everyone else, you've got to go again to grain. This was his exact words. Conventional Wisdom Sucks, and...

...it really does. And then from then on I heard about Ray Dalio, who talked about that in his own investment portfolio. So he's the founder of bridgewater capital. You think about anyone that's pretty successful. Actually. They pretty much went again against the grain. So I created a proverbile doll for that reason. But the journey started. I graduated in neuroscience from university, or college, as your call it in America. Didn't want to become a researcher. I kind of wanted to make money, but I didn't know what to do. My mom was a lawyer, so I decided, you know, let me try law. Converted to law. Tried it, hated it. In the UK it's different to America, where you can make a partner. In America if you bring in a million dollars worth of business. Right it's about the book of business, not just the skills as a legal professional in the UK, and this is starting to change, but back then that was not the case. You had a slog for fifteen years until two three in the morning, then wake up at eight in the morning to be in court, and that just did not appeal to me. Plus I found the paperwork boring, so I decided I'm going to leave that. I didn't know what I wanted to do, but I kept coming across sales job postings and I kept seeing the ot and I thought no, that actually looks pretty good. I'm going to try that for two years while I figure out what I want to do and you know, twenty years later I'm still doing it. So that was kind of how I fell into sales and the first job I had to resign, or quit as you say in America, before I was going to get fired. So I didn't go after good even though I helped close a million, two million pound deal. Actually it still didn't get off to a good start, but a company called data monitor heard about that and headhunted me. About a year into it, or maybe eight months into it, the financial crash happened. So still not going well and, you know, really struggling, actually really struggling to implement what was being taught. It just wasn't me. Very boiler room style sales. It just wasn't me. Now there were a lot of good things I took out of that in terms of attitude and approach, very grand card done style. I don't agree with everything he says, but I love his energy and that came across in that business. But one day I was feeling sorry for myself and I decided to clear out my bookcase or clean it just one weekend and a book fell in my head. I mean it literally fell on my head and I looked down and it was an old cognitive neuroscience textbook from my university days, and I looked at that I thought, I mean, what training did I have about the buyers and how they think and how they make decisions? And I thought, I think we're going about this the wrong way. I went deep back into it. I'm not a PhD student, I'm not a professor, so I don't profess to be an expert in neuroscience at all. My my area sales, but from then on I started looking at this and say thinking, well, what do I need to do to resonate with the buyer and how they think and how they make decisions? And I realized we're doing this all wrong. So I took the brave step of trying it that way and at first there was a struggle, but afterwards it just took off. I mean it really just took off and the results were incredible. I want awards top salesperson at some point. Wasn't top salesperson every time, but you don't have to be in order to continue going up. In fact, I think there's benefits in the troughs and you learn a lot and I had the privilege of specializing in actually working with se level executives, and a lot of people talk about that, but this purely was that. The product we were selling was that, and these were C level executives of multi billion powered organizations. And then from then on my career grew. I sold to over ten industries, different industries as sales leader, sales manager, and companies like Gardner as well as small companies. And from then I started giving advice to salespeople. Loved coaching and loved the training. Found that I enjoyed that more than managing, if I'm being honest, and from then I decided to make that as a business. After about three or force failed businesses, that kind of fell into but create a proverbi your door and that seemed to be working well. So yeah, that's my long winded answer to your question. Now, that's good. And how are you been doing this? Sales or proverbile door, pro real...

...or two thousand? Okay, so in some of your content I remember reading, so it's uh, you talk about building trust, being customer obsessed. Give me some content, or our listeners some contents. What are we talking about here? Yeah, let's start with trust. So where now, at four hundred and twenty two buyers that I've interviewed across ten different industries, nine different functional responsibility, so hr, I, T R and D, sales, marketing, procurement, etcetera. Some of these interviews were official, some of them were unofficial, but over the years it's we're at now four hundred and twenty two, and what is interesting is that nothing fancy like with CB, where one of the companies I worked with, where there's a regressional analysis, etcetera. And this is these were my conversations and me taking notes and digging deeper. Everything seemed to lead back to two words that every single one of those four hundred and twenty two buyers that I interviewed used, and that was the word trust, or honestly. And when we started digging into the experience that their experience with sellers there were critical, well, actually not critical, they were at every moment in the sales process or the buying process, trust was either broken or elevated. And when you think about that, it actually makes complete sense because, contrary to conventional wisdom, where people say you've got to show R A Y right, you've got to show value. I'm not saying that's not important. It is, but here is where a decision is ultimately made, most of the time, a bio maker decision based upon can I trust my reputation, the name that I've worked so hard to earn with this person in their company? That's pretty much what it came down to. Now, sure, there are things like aligning to their human needs, et CETERA. Some people are about certainty, others about growth and innovation, et Cetera, and you've got to speak to that, but ultimately it's saying aligning with that, can I trust that this person is going to elevate my human need and protect my reputation, because I'm going to make a decision here that's either going to affect my ego or my earning potential or my reputation or my career progression, whatever it might be that they value. That is what it came down to and that is why trust is so important. And in order for you to earn trust with the buyer, you've got to be a bit buy or obsessed right, there's no two ways about it. You've got to understand what is important to them. You've got to be able to understand a day in the life, a weekend of life, a month in the life of a buyer, and that is where the magic happens, because that's when you can start to see around corners. That is when you're going to start to see unintended consequences that the buyer may not be able to even see. This is where challenger kind of comes in. So that's, in a nutshell, what I mean by trust and being by or obsessed. Okay, so I know me and least have said this through the years. I just heard you say it. Trust is earned. You didn't say it. It's not just given. That's me saying that part. How do you recommend sellers to go about kind of establishing that, earning that trust with tactics or techniques or what do you recommend, because I think sometimes you will go, Yep, I'll do that as soon as I established some trust, like it's a magic thermometer that POPs when the temperature is just right. But the reality is there's no magical sign that they hold up and say, Hey, well, you and I were at the trust stage. We did it. So anything you recommend and how to establish in it, or maybe even how to know you're there. So that's a big question. There are so Stephen Stephen R Covey, the author of Seven Habits of high effective people. He once wrote that trust is where competency and character meet. And when I looked at that and I did the research, it turns out that there were seven characteristics of a trustworthy character and nine elements of trustworthy of competencies that inspire trust. Those two things, if you think about a fork, that just like almost kind of a yeah, the fork. That basically goes up to one thing, which is trust isn't something that you and trick someone into or portray. You...

...might be able to for a while, but you will be caught out at some point. You are trustworthy, right. It's a part of your character, it's a part of who you are, it's a part of how you present yourself and it's a part of how you act. So I want to make that very clear. If you think I'm going to use some tools and techniques and tricks in order to establish trust with a buyer, look, the average buyer has about five to ten years more experience buying than the average seller has selling. So they've got more experience than you. So stop trying to trick these people. Right, the more senior they are, the less likely you're going to be able to trick them, at least not for long. And in a rapidly transparent world that we live in, if you do that with one others in their group are going to find out. So I want to be clear about this. Trust is something that you are and you earn by being, not something that you can trick by doing, if that makes sense. Doing is the manifestation of who you are. So when we talk about those characterists incompetencies, right. So the characteristics, there are seven. So the first one is I won't go into in too much detail just because of time. So the first one is authenticity. Right. So are you authentic? Are you being yourself? Right? Are you portraying and living your values, your truth? Right, that's quite important. The second one is consistency. Right. So am I consistent in my approach? Giving example, we court new business, new clients, with such further and vigor and such attention to detail, but then as the years go by, as there are clients, we start to kind of become a bit complacent. So consistency is very important. And how you treat someone, integrity. The third one. We don't need to Labor that, right. Do you act with integrity. Are you truthful? That is something that really annoys buyers, very much so. And Lincoln did a study where, I think it was in two thousand and twenty, I think it was, of buyers consider the sales profession to be untrustworthy. Twenty five percent of buyers considered sales profession to be, quote, morally and ethically challenged to buyers already thinking that salespeople are liars. Right, that is just the reality, I'm afraid, right and it shouldn't be like that, but it is. So integrity is really important. The fourth ones responsibility or accountability, and it's not just accountability and responsibility for your target. Buyers don't care about you and your target. It's responsibility and accountability to the buyer and to their outcomes, not your features, advantages, benefits and R Y, etcetera. It's their outcomes that they're really kind of value. So that was one. The other one is, this one's an interesting one, guilt worthiness. So study in University of Chicago found that people that felt a sense of guilt, and if the recipient felt that that person felt a sense of guilt, they would inspire more trust in the individual. So to giving examples. Not exactly a sales example, but if you're hiring someone, one of the questions I typically ask or seek is you're asking the interview tell me about the time when you felt guilty about that action you took in the past. Why did you feel guilty about that action and how did you change your behavior going forward? If someone doesn't feel guilt for something, kind of bit of a we have a term for that in psychology, right, which we're not going to go into. But if someone doesn't feel guilty about actions, that alarm bills. The other one is generosity. So this is the sick one, generosity. Right. So we've heard sometimes about the rule of three give three times before you ask for something. And what's interesting about generosity? And here's what's really and this is why it took a while for me to add the seventh one in. If you try to be generous without exemplifying the other six, people will be suspicious of you. It's in genuine and that makes sense because if you're being overly generous, people think, hang on, what are they trying to get out of this? Yeah, is a genuine exactly what are they trying to get out of this? How are they trying to trick me. Right. So you've got to exhibit the other characteristics, at least another two or three of the other characteristics, with generosity. And then the final one is agreeable nous. Now, agreeableness doesn't mean in...

...being a yes person and just agreeing with someone. I likened this too, stepping into the world of the buyer and understanding their perspective. So think about the buyer as this meandering river and you're at the shore of that river and what we do in sales is we just throw in a dam to basically say no, no, no. Listen to me, listen to my perspective, which goes against psychology, by the way. Listen to me for a dam in the river. But sooner or later the force of that person's view, which has been built over years and years of conditioning and knowledge and experience, will break through that dam or find a way around. Instead, as a salesperson, if you want to get someone to understand your perspective, step into the river. Understand the river, it's temperature, it's flow, its depth, right, it's clarity. Understand that flow with that and then you can start to divert the river towards a better path. Right. So those are the seven characteristics and as Warren Buffett says, when he was asked one of the three qualities you look for, I think he said integrity, integrity, energy and intelligence, and he said but if someone doesn't have the first to the last one will kill you. And when you ask anyone that's a high performer, it seems that character is important more so than competency. Doesn't mean you shouldn't have competency, but if someone doesn't have the characteristics of trustworthiness then it doesn't matter how competent they are, you just won't trust them or that relationship can only go so far. So does that before I move on to competency, does that make sense? Any questions or surprises there? From what I've just shared, not surprises. It sounds like everything we've all thought before as buyers in our own roles as we've moved through our careers. I think that maps really well. But I'm curious in your opinion, because something we also talk about as we go through our sales trainings is enthusiasm. And where do you feel that sits inside the seven characteristics or does it sit outside of that? So that's a good question because let me ask you this. If someone is in Phusiastic but isn't consistent, doesn't feel that sense of accountability, isn't generous and doesn't give before asking enthusiastically, I can ask you for your money really enthusiastically. Believe me, we've all been trained to do so. I think, and here's why I talk about enthusiasm is not in there, because if you're enthusiastic about a product or a solution but it's not authentic and it's not coming across as authentic, then that enthusiasm means nothing. In fact, you're going to be more enthusiastic about the potential commission. You're going to earn from that, not from how you're going to help the buy it. So I'm not saying enthusiasm isn't important. It's a vehicle or a mechanism by which we portray our characteristics, because you don't want to sound bored and you don't want to become across as boring. But if you don't have the others, it doesn't matter how enthusiastic you are. In fact, if anything, that might go against you with the buyer. And here's one of the reason why I talk about enthusiasm in a sales process in order to establish trust. One of the things that's quite important is what we talk about an NLP, which is matching in mirroring. If you talk to a New Yorker who talks really fast, etcetera, and versus to, say, someone from Texas, where I'm using American examples, but examples all over the world here. That enthusiasm is subjective and if you're talking to a Texan really fast, etcetera, and just kind of in a driver mentality, they're not going to feel enthusiastic about you, even though you may think you're coming across as enthusiastic. Versus, if you're talking to someone in New York has used to talking at that fast pace, they're going to think her there's someone like me. I can feel that person's enthusiasm because it matches my own version of what enthusiasm looks like, because some people enthusiasm is energetic, emotional communication, but for others enthusiasm is attention to detail. Right, it's diligence on that attention to detail, delivering on your promises. Some people find that more enthusiasm versus coming across with charisma. Does that answer your question very much. So, no, I appreciate that answer. It's a good one. I haven't come across that question before. It's a good one. Okay, it well, it's just something...

I'm sure you connect to. Why we talk about it, why we ask it is like the going back to the smile and dial is like your enthusiasm comes across. But I agree if you don't have the authenticity and you're in genuine behind it, people will pick up on that. It does need to be a combination of everything, but I think being genuine, authentic sellers ourselves, we just connect to the fact that if there's not an enthusiasm behind it, you're not compelling about what you're selling and and honestly, I've said to people, if you're not enthusiastic about what you're selling today, why are you at the company you're at? Like, if you don't believe in the product, that is very quickly going to come across in your voice and your tone and your actions, as we sell on zoom nowadays. So it's just something that I was really curious as you listed those seven, but I love your answer and thank you for attacking that question. Yeah, absolutely, I was thinking that, as you were saying, be more enthusis. So, rather than sounding enthusiastic, be passionate about what you're offering to the BIA. Be Passionate about the bias world, which is the bio upset. Should be passionate about the value and the promises that you make to you buy and how you can help them, not only now but in the future. I would say those are things that you should be passionate about rather than trying to portray enthusiasm through smile and dial instead, internally, smile about and be excited about how you're going to be able to help this person and why you're excited to contact them, not just because you've been told to contact them and you've got to hit a number. Right. That is the end result of doing all the right things. I love that. Yeah, the impact you can have on their business. Yeah, yeah, internalize that, get excited about that, get fired of about that. I love it. Awesome. So I feel like you've touched on a lot of this already, but is there anything additional that you would say about proverbial doors approach that is creating successful processes that companies are are? We read the stats, we see a minimum of fifty no pressure increase in sales. Like what is your approach and why does it work so well? So I guess there are two things that we do as a business and for me, although I have frameworks, etcetera, but no one cares about those frameworks. What they care about is how am I going to be better off with you coming into my life versus when you don't? And that's really what it comes down to. And there are two arms of my business. There's the one arm where we train sales people to enter and remain in what we call the club that is consistently or above of their target and then there's the other arm of the business where we help founders of businesses or leaders of business create an incredibly the right maturity level of commercial of their commercial function. It's kind of creating that commercial infrastructure. And here's why we get the results that we get. It's because we put the first things first. We major in the majors. Too many people, Jim rown talks about it. Too many people major in the minors and I have to catch myself doing that sometimes. Right, it's we do that because it's easy and it gives us gratification. And this is your neuroscience. Working in some ways against you here, but eat the frog first. It's we major in the majors. So when I go with the clients, they will expect me to talk about fancy things, create this infrastructure and sales, etcetera. And then I asked him the first question, which is, tell me about your ideal client. Describe to me your ideal client. Well, my ideal client is these types of companies with this type of infrastructure, they're situated in these regions around the world, etcetera. I said, that's great. Now tell me about your ideal clients. Well, what do you mean? We just did Laden tell me about the person that you're selling to, because you're not selling to a face this company. You're selling to people in that company. It's those people that drive the decisions of the business. To tell me about the person you are selling to. Oh, there's this job title, okay, tell me about the person. And what you find in a lot of companies is very few companies can actually answer that question. And here's why that's really important. Everything that you do is speaking to that ideal customer, everything from the messages...

...that you send out with this which is very obvious, but very few people do it, from the messages that you send out, from the position that you have in the market, even things like the type of sales people we want to hire. Are they the type of sales people that can effectively engage with our ideal customer profile and their characteristics? Everything starts with that, even to the leaders that you hire, because you want leaders that will exemplify an honor those buyers and therefore make the right decisions, all of which is about being able to engage and resonate with that buyer and to keep them as clients. It sounds boring and for some companies that sounds obvious because all they're thinking about is higher, more sales people, higher, more salespeople, dial more, dial more, Dal more. But doing that hard work at the beginning, that takes time. Just like an innovation process, for example, the more time you spend at the front end, the shorter, faster and higher value your innovation pipeline is. It's the same with the sales pipeline. So we spend a significant amount of time with our clients getting helping them get that right, because all decisions after that flow even down to the structure of your targets or quota. There are a lot of companies out there that have quarterly targets but their sales cycles are six, six or eight months, or six or twelve months. So how do you figure that? You should be having quarterly targets? And if you have quarterly targets, think of them more spacing, because the success of q three or q four is not down to work you've done in q three or q four, it's down to good work that you've done in q one or q four the prior year. So we spend a huge amount of time getting that right. And then the second thing that we do is, so that's the buy obsession part. The second thing that we do is that we throw all sales conventional wisdom out of the window and everything that we do in terms of our training, even the structure of our training to what we teach, is ground did in neuroscience and behavioral psychology. Because the problem is, I'll give you a very simple example, make the buying process as easy as possible for the buyer in order not just for them to buy, but for them to understand what value you provide. Why? Because the brain is inherently a lazy organ and most people don't really appreciate that it's designed, when you form habits, is designed to conduct a repetitive exercise, that it's recognized as perpetitive in as energy efficient way as possible, because utilizing glucose, which is the only energy source it can use, is extremely draining on the brain. And everything that we do is grounded in that. So when someone says I'm going to talk about myself and my company, I say does your buyer give a dam and is the Thalamus, which is a part of the brain which is the filtering system, blocking that or allowing that in? Chances are it's blocking that. There's a theory called psychological egoism, which is we care about ourselves more than we would care about others. Right. So we look at those two things, the buyer obsession and being completely buyer obsessed, which is different to customers, interesting, and then everything we do is grounded in neuroscience and behavior psychology in terms of how the buyer makes a decision, how they want to ingest information. We work backwards from that in terms of the sales process. There's a lot more behind what I've just described and we can go into detail a few wants, but hopefully that does that answer your question. Definitely, it sounds like a very thorough, very well positioned process. Yeah, and that's why we get that. But it takes courage to do that. You're going against the grain, which is why this is not for everyone, and we're very clear about that. You say against the grain, but in a way it's like you're doing the hard work that you should have done at the beginning. It seems like as well to truly understand your buyers, which some organizations don't. In fact. You know, we sometimes see great technology companies that build a great idea to solve a great brob um that don't go through the aftera. who really buys this stuff...

...and do they see it as as big as the problem as you do? And then you start seeing them pivot, and I was like, okay, that didn't work. I didn't have that many buyers. Let's pivot. Let's solve something else that we think is a bigger deal, versus kind of thinking about who really buys this thing. And we like that because we think about that as well in talking about this, and you talk about the way they buy. Is there a pattern to the way people buy? So, in other words, if you study the brain more than we have if you think about the pattern and how people make buying decisions, is there a pattern to it that we can somehow aligned to more easily? Yeah, I don't know if you intentionally that that. That's a big question, right, not that smartly. I think you are. That's decentive. I think you are. There is a pattern, there is a pattern and there are layers to this. So the first pattern that we want to think about is the individual that you're selling to. What's link for? Actually, you're not selling to someone, you're selling for someone and there are certain levels to that individual. The first thing is you've got to understand that person's human need or their values, and there are different frameworks out there. You've got master's hierarchy, you've got youngion needs, you've got even Tony Robbins needs, et Cetera, which I personally use just because it's simple. But you've got to understand what drives that person in their life, not just in work, because work is just another function of their life. So there are six right, if we use one of the frameworks and there's a need for certainty, there's the need for significance or the ego, there's a need for variety, there's connection or love and then there's growth. To do we go through a significant certainty variety, connection, love, growth, contribution. If you're talking to someone about how innovative your product is, but you're talking to someone who is driven by this need for certainty to make things as stable as possible, it's just not going to resonate with them. So you've got to understand what drives the individual that you're speaking with. Now, I appreciate that that could be hard to do in a cold calling environment. However, there's a lot of information out there that will give you the sense of where this person fits in, and it's usually two things, two out of those six. However, you can pressure test that during the conversation. So there's that individual level. And then what that leads to is what we term is personal value, right, or emotional value, and personal values really important. CEB did a study, which is now Gardner did a study around personal value versus business value. We focus on the business value all the time, right, but there is a personal value and especially in recessions, people will stand up for you because you are aligned with their personal value more so than it's just business value. So sixty eight percent of buyers that saw personal value will pay a higher price for your service compared to others. Of buyers who see personal value are more likely to buy your service compared to just put business value right. So understanding what's a personal value to that individual, which kind of aligns to the human need. That's how we firstly make a decision about something. Does this? Will this elevate or depress what's really important to me in terms of my values? Any tips or ideas on how to uncover that? And I'm not talking about a cold call or early sales cycle, but you're engaging with someone in conversation, you're starting to understand the better. So here's a comment. We believe in uncovering personal value and of course you know it's important, but it's hard to get. Actually it's not. So any ideas and how to get it effectively? Yeah, it's actually not. You just ask the question. Don't ask what's your human need, you ask questions like this. That's interesting that this is a priority for you. Tell me a bit more about why that's a prior to to you right now, because I need to hit my goals. Why now versus earlier on? You know what's changed. Yeah, but if someone says,...

...okay, you need to hit your goals, then you can ask the question, which is, what would you hitting your goal mean to you? I mean what would it truly mean to you? So let's go down that vein, Lisa. What would that truly mean to you? It would mean that I can completely I can earn the highest level on my performance review. Good and you know, Lisa, I've got a bit. I've done Mbos, I've sat on recipients of M B O S, I've given M B O s. So I can absolutely agree with you on that. For me that's really important. Can I ask why do you want to achieve, and to use your words, Lisa, the highest level of your performance goals, and how would that make you feel? I would be seen as a rock star inside my organization. Interesting, so you said that you would be seen as a rock star. So being seen as that rock star is important to you. Yeah, okay. So which one of that said just time out on that? Which one of that out of that six was that that was significance. It was being seen as the rock star in that business. That is significance. Here's a trick. Unfortunately, the majority of the two most prominent human needs that we see out there are certainty and significance. I say unfortunate because there's growth and contribution. And I used to be like this. I've gone through this journey. When you're obsessed by certainty and significance, firstly, you're not going to grow, because as soon as you hit a point of growth, you're going to come back to certainty without realizing it sometimes, so you might actually self sabotage yourself. And then, secondly, if it's all about me, me, me, guess what, I don't care about the buyer, and that's going to come through. So, by the way, I'm not saying that it's evil to have those two write. You must have a sense of significance. You do need to have a sense of certainty, otherwise you're going to be constantly in a stressful states. Right, there's an importance to it, but what Lisa just described there, that's only because I've practiced it. I can quickly say, okay, that is significance. This person wants to be seen as the best, they want to be recognized as the best. And I'm not saying significance the only one. There usually is a second one, but already there. I can understand that. So asking questions. I interviewed someone that has on their linkedin he's the chief revenue officer. He has not ten or twenty, he has four hundred recommendations about him as a chief revenue officer, as a sales leader on linkedin. Four hundred. When I asked him, and I was really hoping his answer would be what I thought it was, because there's everything I've espoused through sales, and I asked him what is the most important skill in sales? He said the most important skill is the ability to ask good quality questions and to truly listen to the answers given. And if you ask, in my view the quality of your life is in direct proportion to the quality of the questions that you ask, whether that's the questions you ask yourself or the questions you ask others. So if you don't know how this person feels, ask the question. If they're not willing to give you the answer, that means you haven't either earned the trust or you haven't asked the question the right way, in which case ask it again, which is what I did with Lisa. I just asked and ask it in a different way. So if someone says, I don't know how to understand someone's human needs. Ask Ask about what drives them, ask about why they made that decision, ask about how, if you notice, I asked Lisa at the end, how would that make you feel? Using feel connects with the emotion, which is where human needs coming I love that. What Whitman quote that I had on my quote board that you can't see in the shot right now and our listeners can't see anyway, was be curious, not judgmental. So in psychology we have a saying in n LP, and there's a huge misconception about NLP. But you cannot persuade someone and judge them at the same time. Your brain just can't do it. That's because the thalamus and the proof onto cortex are now fighting. It can't do it. You can't do it. So put aside all judgment and if, when you do so, you'll find that you'll be able to persuade this person because you'll be able to understand their point of view. That's the agreeable this I talked about. You'd be able to step into that river,...

...step into the world. So yeah, I completely agree with that quote. I love that. I love that. The big part of hiring for me is a genuine curiosity. If you don't know something about me, something about the company and something about the job, our interviews over in ninety seconds. So yeah, that's interesting. How do you uncover that with the kinds of by asking have you heard? What do you know about the company? If the answers vague or you know something they read off the website and not you know, because I often interviewed for people who are in the str role. So research and authenticity and personalization being very, very important in that role. Not Hard to do, not hard to find. You can in six minutes find a few things by digging for Google News. You know things that are coming up. If I don't see something, that's a little bit beyond just reading the website. And then if I ask about do you know anything about me and they say no, there is so much information about me out there. I'm so find herble, I'm so contactable, I'm on every platform and if they don't know who I am or what I do, how do I expect you to be really great at your job, at prospecting a connecting to what your buyer cares about? So yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's one of the most common ways that trust is broken. Yeah, especially in the world we live in. That buias have told me. Yeah, yes, absolutely, as too, as too, that show me, you know me. Yeah, no, excuse, exactly. No excuse for not knowing that. Absolutely no excuse. And the threshold for value is getting higher and higher every day, because buyers aren't expecting you to regurgitate what you've learned about them. Here's the interesting part. You don't just say, Hey, I read this about your about your company, on your annual report, et Cetera. No, no, what buyers now expect is for you to come up with an intelligent hypothesis or an intelligent conclusion as to what I've learned and what this means and what this is going to mean to you. And that is where the magic happens, and when buyers here people that ask questions that actually, you could have clearly researched yourself. That is one of the most common examples that those fo two buyers have told me of how trust is broken. And you've just exemplified that there. And, by the way, that's in an interview process. They're exemplifiesing their sales skills right, and I've interviewed people that basically didn't no homework, and then I thought, well, if you're not going to do that for an interview, you're not going to do that for a buyer. So not right for us, maybe right for others, but not right for us. So we can talk about this all day long, but we've got to change direction a little bit here in the sake of time. But we ask all of our guests a couple of questions. I'll kick it off and Carlos will will take it home. But being a revenue executive, a business owner yourself, you often get prospected to by the very roles we were just talking about. So what actually catches your attention, build credibility and may even by a response if they do not have a warm introduction to you. So a cold our reach? What works to get your attention and potentially even get a response from you? Well, we talked about it just now. Doing your homework and showing that, yeah, there's a great lead up. Yeah, yeah, see, you guys are way smarter than you than you try to place yourself to be right. So, I mean this is all planned. I love this. I didn't experiment where I deliberately piste off about two thousand nine people on Linkedin as part of a test. I haven't published the results yet, watching you haven't published it because they kicked you off and now you know a lot. I don't know why I've been hesitant and publishing this because it's got great findings, right, and I did this through Linkedin. I use Linkedin as the medium, as just an example, but I deliberately used these kind of substandard tactics to get people's attention, and the findings confirmed them. Talk about yourself and I'm not going to be interested. And if you start the email or the cold call, whatever the medium is, about you rather than about me and quickly showing that...

...not only have you done your homework, but you have something of intelligence and value to give me, then I'm not going to be interested. And those people that did do that, they got my attention straight away. Now there is an element of luck based upon things like my mood at the day, right, and that's why numbers are important, but not just blindly going for numbers. It's numbers with intelligence and if I happen to be thinking about that problem right. But what gets my attention is if someone says and not just transparently saying hey, I've read about proverbial door. I would love to learn more about your business. Well, no, you didn't read about my business, but intelligence saying look, I've listened to you on these podcasts and I've heard you talk about this and I see from your business that you're trying to this is your mission statement, et Cetera. I suspect that what you're probably struggling with is either X, Y Z or a mixture of those three. And here's an ex of how we've helped other people in similar circumstances. But we would like to talk to you about how we can help you with those things right. That will get my attention more than anything else, and I've used that myself when I've walked up to someone said Hey, I've read your book. I agree with this. I disagree with this point, but I would love to have you on my show and that usually gets someone's attention. So talk about me, make it it just about me rather than about you. Mention yourself later on, but in context of what we just said about me. So that's the first thing that gets my attention. Number two is, and this is where your brain looks for Saliency, it's got to be something unusual. So images. Your brain processes images sixty times faster than words. So something that uses an image. And what I've done is I've used Venn diagrams where I would position controversially. I would position the brand or the person that I'm trying to reach out in a slightly weaker position compared to their competitors on a venn diagram and I'm like, would you agree with this? Might work with some might work with others, but I tried different things. So images, because images are important. I did an experiment with my professor. So in a one minute video, can you guess how many words you would need to write or type in order to convey or describe what you see in a one minute video? Can anyone guess? About one point nine million words? So in order for you to convey the full description, I say full one minute video, yeah, you would need to talk. So videos, images talk about me. Right. Those are the things that for me, have caught my attention and those buyers that I've spoken to, that's what gets their attention. And consistency of approach right. I mean you're not badgering someone, you're respectful of them and their time and you're still talking about them rather than you're saying hey, I've got I get so many emails where I say look, I've tried reaching you several times and a bit how many. I don't want to do it again. Here's what we want to talk about. Yeah, but there's a reason why I haven't responded to you, because it's all still about you. So stop making it about you and start to talk about the buyer and truly care about the buyer and use different approaches or different angles, but with the buyer in mind, not with you in mind. So those are kind of the three. There are a few others, but those are the kind of three major things that really stand out for me that will get my answer and get my attention. Excellent. Is that the same for you guys? I'm intrigued to know it's. It's funny when you talked about your kind of structure. We call that a name letter and it's basically exactly that, right, and it takes, and I tell people it takes a little bit of homework. You're going to have to figure out what story you'RE gonna share. We're probably going to talk about and it's not just form letter. Put Your name here. Oh Yeah, yeah, you can't personalize at scale. You can make relevancy at scale. So that's when you talk about industry, but you can't personalize that, yea. So, Hey, I gotta so you've had a lot of great insights. One question that we always ask at the end. There's also this acceleration insights and I feel because there's all and things you talked about, but not trying to narrow down...

...the one. But Hey, what would you share with our listeners are sales and marketing professionals or even professional service professionals? What piece of advice you have provide to say that it would help them get to or more? And why don't you pick that one? And I get it. It's not like there's just one magic bullet, but it's something we ask all our listeners and it's always intriguing when people, you know, jump back to that's really hard to answer for one, because there are two, but let's okay, I'll give it to you. Keep brief. Well, I've picked one. So okay. So here's one. Buy a mindset. So actually I kind of answer it in one mindset, right, and that mindset goes into two buy a mindset. So buy or obsessed, got to be buy or obsessed. Everything stems for that. The other one is your own mindset. I've experienced, as I can't tell you how many times, where your performance is directly attributal to your mindset and how you control. Stand Guard at the door of your mind and you can throw all the tools, all the techniques, all the training in the world, but if the mind, the arm that's using that tool, if the mind is not in the right state, then you will not be able to use those tools in the right way and you will not be presenting the best version of yourself in every interact. And that is so powerful but yet so difficult and also so misunderstood and so easily dismissed. So for me it's mindset, bias, mindset and your own mindset. Get Control of that and you are well on your way to being that club or increasing your revenue, increasing your results by another fifty very quickly, I love it, as quickly as possible. Great insights, amazing. Love the way you've kind of brighten a lot of the neuroscience and I've learned something from this podcast and I think it's been great. So thank you for that. If our listeners are interested in learning more about you and your topics, how would you recommend they reach out to you? Yeah, so there are a few ways. So I'm on Linkedin. So forward slash movie Damon. So you can catch me on Linkedin. You can also listen to we share a ton of things and we're about to flood a lot more on our podcast. Now the PODCAST is not proverble door, it's persuasion lab and the Youtube is proverbial door. So sorry for the confusion there that. The Youtube has a ton of stuff. We even analyze companies financials to help people with their financial acumen. So we cover so many things there. So you can find me on that. You can also come to the website w dot at proverbial door dot com and you can sign up to our newsletter we have. We have thousands of people on there. Now and again I give a ton of stuff away for free because I want to raise the elevation and understanding of sales. So yeah, those are the main ways that you can contact me. Thank you. Well, it's been awesome avenue today. We're really appreciate you coming out. I'm Carlos no Ja. My goes at least the scenarire really thank you for sharing your concepts. Has Been Wonderful. Please check US out at www B two B exact dot com. Share this episode with Friends Co workers. I think it's got some great insights and if you're feeling up to it, do you mis us a favor on itunes give us a five star review. We greatly appreciate it. Until next time. Looking forward to you seen on our next episode and I wish you the best success. You've been listening to the B two B revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show on Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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