The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 1 year ago

How Behavioral Change Influences Selling and Marketing w/ Sean Doyle

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Marketers want to know how to create revenue because money is the scorecard of business.

Companies make money when customers buy, but buying requires behavior change. You need people to quit buying from your competitor and start buying from you.

To find out how behavioral change influences sales and marketing, I sat down with Sean Doyle, CEO of Fitzmartin, a company that helps mid-market b2b firms solve sales and marketing problems through strategy and process.

We talked about: 

  • How people change their behavior
  • How to uncover anxiety in your prospects 
  • How to shift organizational culture to focus on customer outcomes

Hear more from Sean in episode 141 on The B2B Revenue Executive Experience.

Listen to this episode and more like it by subscribing to The B2B Revenue Executive Experience on Spotify or Apple Podcasts.

When people talk to themselves, we call them crazy. When businesses talk to themselves, we call it marketing. You're listening to the BB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome every one of the BB revenue executive experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. Today we're talking about how behavioral Change Cannon should influence selling and marketing. It's more about the behaviors than anything else, and to help us cover it we've got shawn him doyle, CEO and principle at fitnce Martin Incorporated. Sean. Thank you for taking time and welcome to the show. Oh thank you for the invitation to share a few insights. You know, life is good. We're working in some interesting revenue driving engagements right now and I'm going to share every secret I got. Sweet so we always like to start with just come of an icebreaker, and when we've kind of been using lately, people that know you largely through work what is something you're passionate about that they might be surprised by passionate on your personal side, that people in your work life might be surprised to learn about Chad. That's a tricky curveball and there come on now, you know, I'd probably say miss our Archer, my junior high art class, is where I'd point to light. I'm really interested in light and in Miss Archer's class we were introduced to photography and you know, I think one of the really most interesting things that's become a lifelong following or passion is not looking at the objects, for people or things you're taking photographs of, but watching how light envelops it, how light reflects off of it, and you know, it's really interesting. I have my daughter who's now twenty six. We've talked about light all through her growing up and now she'll just mentioned dad, look at the light on the top of that tree or look at the light the way that wraps around that mountain. You know, I think light is just really interesting. So photography and Light, I think that's how I'd have to answer that. That's amazing. That's probably one of the best and most in depth answers I've gotten, which is great. Usually it's something's like, Oh, I'm in the cooking or something that's an extremely interesting I kind of like cooking to I like eating, so me to I work good. They're excellent. So all right. So let's talk about behavioral change and how it applies to sales and marketing. Always like to start with a little bit of context. So why? Why this topic? Why behavioral change and its influence on selling and mark well, you know. Okay, so after Miss Archer, I guess we skip forward a few years and a friend changed a book or shared a book with me called changing for good, and this book is a modern day interpretation of some science called...

...the Trans Theoretical Theorem of behavioral change. And as I read it, that's a mouthful, isn't it? That's a lot. Well, PROCHAGICA, norcross and declemente where the scientists. So if you really want to get into it, wow, this book changing for good was just it was not about marketing, but it laid out this framework the way that all people make change, the way we change behavior, and it's Trans Theoretical, right. It's all models of behavioral change in psychology and and I thought, you know, this is amazing. This, this is and I'd look at things through a marketers eyes, but I don't look through it with the idea of like silly, touchy feel a soft touch marketing. I look at it with how do I create revenue, and that's what your audience wants to know, and how do I support sales teams who are driving revenue and and how do I get how do I impact businesses? I want the rest of my life to be a mission to help business leaders understand how to lever marketing in a way they never have before. And it's kind of be rooted in something more than my opinion and this context that you're talking about. The context is behavioral science. It's it's change, but it's codified, it's proven and it's repeatable. And how many marketers do you know can talk about anything that's repeatable or not? Man Any, you know, I just we had success or early, probably the first twenty years of my career, I did not have this science and sometimes things worked and sometimes things didn't and and I didn't really know how to repeat it. In this book the science just revolutionize the way that I work and now the way that we work and when we help companies with research and insights or revenue operations engagements or even marketing technology. We're always going to put it in the context of this behavioral science. We call it cognitive marketing, but it's really at the heart of it, behind it. It's changing for good. It's the Trans Theoretical theorem behavioral change, and so this is where the statement marketing is science, not arts comes from solutely. And so how does it? So let's kind of extrapolated up a level. So we've got this underlying cognitive marketing approach. How does that come to life inside of an organization or inside of a team? How do they have to change the way they look at things, engage with things or think yeah, great question chat, I think, but I see most often is and let's talk about money, because right, money is the score card and business, behavioral change, science might be about how to improve your life. That we've got to keep the score. And Marketing often has trouble defending itself when that score card pulls out, and I think it's because, and you, you can argue this, but because you're more of a sales guide than me. Right. So sales gets this last touch attribution benefit. So you can always go and say we closed x dollars. Well, in a sense that's fair because you did touch...

...at last, sales touch to last, but man, it's such a failure on the part of understanding how somebody buys. Houch and behavioral change is buying, I guess that's really important to say right. Or buying is behavioral change maybe as another way to say it. So I think what happens the practical context of not having a cognitive understanding of how people buy is you spend too much on what you understand about marketing, and almost everybody understands marketing as creation of awareness, and too little on sales in the right places. So if you don't understand marketing, if you don't really have a scientific basis from marketing, then you're going to either rely on sales to do the work that marketing should be doing, which just drives your customer acquisition through the roof right, or or you're going to be frustrated with marketing. In fact, I would challenge that that last agency you fired or that last marketing director that you've fired or were glad they left. The reason why is they didn't have a framework, they didn't have a basis of understanding and they couldn't come talk to you leaders of small businesses, midsize middle market businesses, they couldn't talk to use on typically they they only talked in a marketing kind of way. So I benefit from the fact that I actually spent the first nine years of my career in marketing, and so did analyst relations and Marcom and running marketing teams and sitting across the table from sales wondering why we could not ever seem to be speaking the same language. And then, shortly after I got my my advanced degree in marketing, decided okay, well, if I can't figure out why they don't understand me, I'm going to go that side of the table and jumped into sales. And part of what made me so successful was that I understood the entire journey of how marketing influenced and and helped set the stage for successful selling. Now a lot of organizations don't have that. There is no framework for that exchange between the two. But understanding why people buy, why they make the change, that is all is really tapping in almost a customer experience. Are Buying experience element of it and designing backwards for it like coming into the organization and so the organization out. And so I'm curious what you've seen. What you've seen when you started working with clients or we're putting in place this framework. Where are the big Ahas that the marketing people, of the sales people all of a sudden see that they didn't see before? Yeah, I think the the biggest journey is that I'm not a flake. Maybe I am if I'd be willing to say that on the air. I don't know. The the idea that there's science behind the way you think then unfold itself in a beautiful way. And and we had there's a lot of conversation...

...about sales and marketing alignment today and there's a lot of conversation about demand generation. So it sales enablement, customer success technologies, and there's a lot of conversation about revenue operations and this role and how does that fit when you used to have an SVP or sales and a CMO? I had that conversation this morning and and trying to figure out how all these things can become aligned. Well, the way we do this, as we use a the framework as the basis upon which to create the common dialog. So when I'm in a marketing role and I say I'm working on a contemplation to preparation, conversion, or stage two three in our language, then I can say, and you understand, hey, there's three processes according to behavioral science, that work. We can get them emotionally aroused, we can get them rash, cause them to rationally reevaluate and we can leverage social liberation to help the buyer, the prospect in this point, move forward. So I can say that simply by saying, Chad, I've got a two three conversion opportunity and I want to talk to you about it. Well, if you've taken the time to have the basis of understanding simply for conversion points, you can understand the entire process of somebody going from pre contemplation through to an extreme change relationship with you. So how much simpler is it if you can make your technology, your sales and your marketing, your executive team, you're reporting everything centered around for simple points? And I didn't make up this pipeline, which is kind of what it sounds like right, pre conversation to action. Yeah, it's a pipeline, sort of, but it's it's really more about behavioral change. Doesn't matter how big the funnel is or how narrow the funnel is, it's a one to one. It's sales. Even marketing is pointing more toward this one to one approach to the world, which is Great. It is changing everything disability, from marketing through digital technologies to be a one to one marketing tools and dislike. Sales is always been one to one, right. It's one reason it's so effectively. All the intuition that a salesperson has marketing. Now, if they understand their roles, can leverage that. And I think you meant go ahead. I don't know. I was because it's interesting. Right, because the the common language that is really the foundation for it. So some shared type of common language that is, I don't want to say outside of but let's say it's different than what they're used to. Some marketing speaks in marketing speak and sales tries to do their sales thing. But if you can find a common language that is as simple as that, then there is a way to drive cohesion and consistency that didn't exist previously. Oh you know what, one of my favorite moments in my professional life is now that I I'll...

...call a client, I'll call a CEO or an stp of sales or whoever had a client, and and they'll say, hey, we just had the greatest three four conversion success today and I'm like, oh my gosh, they're using the language and I understood exactly what you said. That makes me so happy to see that, because it's solving problems for them. Chad. I think one thing it might be kind of fun would be to talk about what almost everybody who has a sales pipeline of any sort gets frustrated with, and this is probably one of the greatest misconceptions. That's when you get somebody who's a contemplator, what do you call it in your sales training, Chad? When it's somebody who just sits on thinking about yeah, indecisive stuff, not not. They're not. They're kicking the tires. I mean we've got a whole bunch of ways we can name it in the sales process, but essentially they're not. They're just poking around. They're not there's no urgency for them to do anything. So, yeah, it's part exactly their behavioral science teaches us that somebody can sit in that state in the science calls a contemplation. Somebody can sit in the state of contemplation for one two years before taking action. So it's interesting because he's contemplators. They understand their problem, they see their problems, cause they understand what your solution might be, but they're still not willing to move forward. So if I'm in marketing, I'm frustrated because I keep providing them information and I can't seem to get them to move forward. Or if I'm in sales, I'm on my fifth sales call and I can't get anything to move forward. So we call them low quality leads. Well, they're not low quality leads and as management I need to understand. So just because somebody's sitting in this state of contemplation for two years, it doesn't mean they're low quality leads and to get rid of them. It means they're an asset that's just waiting. It's more of the farmer to talk, sales talk. You know, we've got to understand this is this, is this somebody that we're going to be able to help later. So let's respect them, let's help them and then let's apply science. The science says that we can emotionally get them excited to move forward. We can rationally get them excited to move forward. We can use social liberations. To think about Social Liberation as Oh wow, the leader in our industry space uses Chad and his model, so I should probably check out the value selling framework. I should. You know, that's that's amazing, that's that's social liberation. So we can provide these studies and help people understand that these powerful people are using whatever this solution is that you sell. Well, that is a freeing effort. Here's why these people can be locked down by fear of failure, just fear of failure, and social liberation and overcomes fear of failure more than anything else. But us, what a sales people? What do we tend to do? More often than anything, complain more information. Complain, yeah, provide...

...more information, bitch that marketing didn't create the right awareness. You know, or try to marketings. Typical response is to try to create more awareness. But that's not where a contemplator is. A contemplator already knows you, knows their product, knows their problem, knows how to solve it. They're just stuck and you've got to give them away. And that's where our work has been so successful is we've been able to teach marketers, teach sales people the tool sets and to understand how the behavioral science applied. And by doing that it gives you Aha moments of new things to invest in. Because who thinks about investing in tools to create social liberation? We all think about creating ads, right, that's not that's not what you need. You know, who thinks about the websites function for a contemplator where they're gathering more and more interruption or more and more information, and does he asking the question? Does our website have very clear emotional and rational information? Almost every company I've ever worked with will have one or the other, and it's based on who gives the approvals. So if you've got a very emotional CEO, you're going to have an emotional website and you're going to leave as a barrier all your buyers who want to be rational, and vice versa. You know, even even my accountant, if you ask his wife, has an emotional side. So the most rational, the most rational of people can be emotional and that's okay. You know, there's some other interesting science. God, you got me excited. A lot of stuff there some other interesting science. How to U CAL Berkeley. That talks about fear and I do you teach anything around fear and how to use that as a salesperson, not manipulate, but to how to use it. We touch on it a little bit more, more around. It's more about our creating anxiety, like using the fear in a way that creates the anxiety of unintens and unintended consequences of lack of action. Now that's perfect. Yeah, so, and what you're doing there fits the science. It's amazing. So you know, regardless of people's tendency to procrastinate, they're looking for reassurance. So create that anxiety sales people, but marketing teams, what are you doing to resolve the anxiety? Help support sales as they help move people through this channel and a lot of buyers are looking for this magic moment of absolute certainty. So anxiety is important. Right. You're never going to find absolute certainty, you're never going to get this magic moment. So how do you deal with that? You've got to understand you. I love the idea of creating anxiety intentionally. That sounds so counterintuitive, but especially when most people want to just calm down right most sales most sales reps, when they're having a conversation, they have a tendency to forget that this should be an exchange of equals rather than a subservient type of religion ship. If I'm asked to do something, the question I would be asked as well, why do I need to do that to help you out, like what is what is it going to give you? If you're asking me for something, and...

...if you're asking me for something that I want to make sure I'm getting something in return right, quick pro quo. But then when they get stuck in what you would call the contemplation, what we would go after it or highlight is, Hey, there is a consequence of not taking action and and what we need to do is bring that to the forefront of their thinking. I asked just not through making statements, where we have a firm belief that questions on cover solutions and statements can create conflict. So we want to ask some questions like what happens if what happens if you don't do x, Y and Z? What happens if that problem is not solved? What does that mean your next review? What does that mean to the organizational objectives, things like that, chattering thinking. So aligned on this. Yeah, and you're thinking is aligned with the with the science out of you, cal Berkeley, that says all humans have three types of pain. Right, they have. They have pain around themselves, personal pain. Why didn't I get that job? Why am I? Is My career not advancing? Why is my family so frustrated with the amount of money I'm Brent making? I mean there's all these personal pains. There's financial pains. Why am I? I've got to hit this number, I've got to make production more efficient, I've got a lower capital x or the the CFO is going to beat on me again, you know. And there's the strategic pain. My boss is challenge me strategically to solve some problem. So if you break down those pains and create anxiety around those three pains, the interesting thing is I bet what you're really doing is not creating anxiety. Is You're uncovering anxiety that already exists on the buyers part. Yeah, it's not a it's and I think it's a really it's not. It's not a nuance. Selling should be helping. If you're creating anxiety as a tool, as a trick. Early in my career I got all the sales training in the world and I hated my life. I hated having to have these lines to say and you know, if you say this, then I counter with that and I tryal close and then I do this and that, and some of that may be authentic, but most of what I was doing was in authentic and I was trying to manipulate people to buy. Well, well, if you just ask questions and let people uncover their pains, they're going to end up being one of those three pains right. They're going to be strategic, going to be personal, they're going to be financial. So executives listening to this, look at your marketing right now, when somebody is in that contemplating stage or even the next step, when they're preparing to make a decision. Does your marketing support messages around all three of those actions? And marketers, look at the work you're providing to your sales team. So as a buyer moves through this journey towards a purchase, sales should be more and more involved and marketers, your job should be less around helping people to begin to contemplate and more around helping sales be successful. So there may be things that are prospect only sees of sales gives them. If you...

...know that, the science teaches that there's personal, strategic and financial pain, look and audit your own marketing materials. Are you providing answers or way to see those things, the way to to get somebody emotionally excited or rationally excited? Are you showing case studies of Social Liberation? The best in the industry, the best in class that's doing this, with this solving their problems with your pain? And that's a different case study than what we see on most websites and most ads. Absolutely, because it takes a level. It takes a level if we're doing the self assessment, it takes a level of extrapolation, because if I'm looking at my own marketing and my own product, I'm already brought in, I work here, I know myself school and so to be able to look at it through the Lens of my potential prospect or buyers, to understand what is valuable to them, what will elicit that financial or personal emotional response, that values to them, becomes something that I see a lot of organizations struggle with because they're so caught up in their own trees. They don't see the forest right. All I can see it. Yeah, how cool we are. So when this would make me excited, well, yeah, it makes you excited because you work. They're like, you know, you know, you're talking about a feature of function or something. We're not talking about what is exactly valuable or to that other individual in any of those areas. One of my one of my co workers and a friend for a couple decades now, has this great line and he uses it with a plum and I won't have the style that he says. When people talk to themselves, we call them crazy. When businesses talk to themselves, we call it marketing. Yeah, it's it's a true line to I mean I bet if you look at your website, you're marketing materials right now, you're going to find something where you're talking about yourself to yourself. Ohkare absolutely, absolutely cares. Yeah, it doesn't condemned, it doesn't connect because everybody, everybody is centered on the self, like we've created, and we could get into all of the social political reasons that's that's happening, but I just summarize it with the INSTAGRAM ducklip phenomenon. Everbody's taking these damn selfies, but we've gotten everybody to a point, through the APPS that we use or the services that are out there, that people have this control. A customer buyer has control and they can see things and get things as they want them, when they want them, how they want them, and that doesn't translate to the way that we engage with them. Necessary we talked about a lot of organizations will talk about customer experience and and what is experience design and what does it mean to market to the buyer at the different journeys, but be now want to take that step out and look at it from the buyers perspective back towards the organization that that's a serious challenge that I see a lot of companies stumble over. You know, there's also a great lesson it that can help you. It's a it's a trick to hack, if we want to use today's modern...

...way of saying it, right to hack. You know, when you've got people who are still talking about the problem there, they're focusing on their current state. That person doesn't need to be asked to buy. Yet there's a thing that happens in our brains and our model and it's our point of view change, and that point of view change is this. You start looking more about solutions, you start looking about the future. So when I hear time, I hear time coming into the conversation of prospects, saying you have some statement about you know, so if we do this, then that's going to happen. Wow, that's great. I don't even care what they said. It's just a trigger. It means they're looking forward. It's still not time to ask them to buy. It's time to help them think through that as time to give them the information they need to make, to make a small commitment of some sort. And when they start talking about solutions instead of their problems, think what that is like. That's when I've quit talking about myself and now I'm asking you questions. I am asking you to talk about yourself. So, Chad, if we work with you, what's that look like? WHOA, that's so cool. Well, now I get to talk about myself. Right, Jad gets to tell me. I've asked You, I given you permission. But what happens to that same person when they're looking back, when they're focusing on problems, when they're focusing on the past or their current state, and you say do you want to work with us? What happens to that buyer? If they're not, they're not there yet. They're not ready to know about the problem. In fact, I retreat right. Oh my gosh, I got a sales guy. I'm out here. It's the way he says. I'm out. Yeah, I think. I think again. I'm going to come back to this lead quality question. Are you? Most of our work in our advisory services, come component of our business is with that lower middle market space and that's a place where there's enough scale. And the businesses get leads and they're turning them over to sales and sells calls them and they're getting stiff arms. So they say marketing doesn't know what they're doing. They're getting this garbage leads. No, no, you're trying to close somebody who's still trying to figure out the past and they're trying to figure out what their understand what their problem is and how you might matter. So it's actually not a marketing problem, I'd say in challenge it's a sales problem. So if you've got a really terrible lead quality, there's a chance that you're marketing firm or your department's not doing a good job. There is a chance of that, I'll give you that, but probably a greater chances you just don't know what to do with your leads when you get them. Yeah, you don't know what the behavioral science is is saying to do. You know this. What do you do? Did what is your plan? What is and sit down business leaders, sit down with whoever's running your marketing, whoever's running your sales, and ask the question, Hey, when we...

...have a lead, somebody who's contemplating buying from us, what's our goal? Just ask that one question. What is our goal? And see how how the answers come in. You know, if our goal is to help them move forward into preparing and how to make a change and how to buy our product service, then you've got a great team. If they say anything near the goal is to close deals, you know, as to get as many people on the top of the funnel, then you got the wrong guys there. They're driving away revenue, they're driving away people who need to buy your product and service and they don't know what they're doing. there. Another possibility and positioning is the singular proposition upon which all marketing stands. If you're marketing just broadly. You know, we could all go out and buy the lists. We can all go out and buy traffic to our website. If it's the wrong traffic and you're getting conversions and leads, but it has nothing to do with your business. There's no need to what you sell, then you then you've got a different problem. That's that is a true pure marketing problem. But yeah, what's the goal? I mean. And and you know, the Internet shifted control of Information. Buyers don't have to come to your sales team to get information anymore. No, they don't. In fact they don't. I'm in the process of buying an inline or what do they call tankless water heater. I almost bought one from my gas company. This morning. I did one search and I discovered five facts about electric inline tankless water heaters and I am now going to buy another product. I'M gonna go with electric, and it's the answers why or just clear to me. So great example of disruption marketing. People are going to look for information when they buy anything big, CAPEX personal products. They're going to go to the Internet and that's where you've got to be engaged. In answering questions, helping people contemplate, helping people discover things that matter. Well, I just get you a pure rational reevaluation. Right. Well, yeah, what is what now? Because I'm actually thinking, I'm actually starting the process of living in an inline what are you to have kind of well, it's about that, let me tell you. But part of part of this, the the focal point on on the solution, on the outcome, on how this is going to impact my customers. Part of that's a cultural and sometimes even comp plan generated result. Right. So, if I'm if I'm going to sales organization, that is totally if all my conversation is around you know, how many of these do we have? How we going to get them across the line? What is our number? That drives certain behaviors and if we switch that to what is? You know, I was talking to and I'm going to kill me at forgetting it, but she wrote selling with the noble purpose I had her own not too long ago, and the question that she has people ask is, how will our customers be better or different once they impought from us? That one question changes the whole approach. But it only lives and breathe and...

...gets watered and gets son in an environment or culture where we are focused on the customer outcomes rather than our own outcomes. It's brilliant. Selling is helping. It is if it's about yourself. If it's about yourself, the wrong things happen and comp design can absolutely drive the wrong things. YEA, and the same thing for marketing. You know I mean I need leads. I need you to create thousand leads a month. Well, okay, yeah, I can get a thousand leads a month, but if I'll talk about quality or where they come from or hey, the salon on the corners, I can get them to fill out of form. So so here's an idea. Here has we're looking at money. Let's set a customer acquisition goal for both departments, not separate goals, one goal. Let's get marketing and sales sitting beside each other, sting. How do we lower our customer acquisition cost? And then we can look at marketing customer requisition cost separately from sales customer acquisition cost. We've all been doing that. You trade shows over the last decade have been challenged at the value of them. You pull that out. That lowers your sales cost a lot. If you eliminate travel or a majority of travel, then that lowers your sales customer requisition costs and, and I've heard a lot of sales experts say, we can all close more deals remotely than we ever dreamed possible. Oh yeah, we all should explore that. But what if you give this customer requisition cost as the metric and then let sales and marketing figure out what that means? You know, let them, let them on equal footing, be responsible to the CEO. Yeah, that's that right. It's a great perspective. I mean, I love all this behavioral change and anybody who's been any customer who's it's any time with me here's me talk about all of this stuff as well. It's absolutely fascinating to me how we have a tendency to focus on vanity metrics, as I'm still in that phrase from Jason Rechael, but van any metrics instead of the metrics that make a difference and the ones and really move us across the finish line. I could, I could sit here and talk about this for hours, but out of respect for time, I do want to keep his moving. So we ask all of our guests two questions to standard questions towards the end of reaching first is simply you know as a CEO and founder, that makes you a prospect for a lot of people out there and I'm always curious to know when somebody doesn't have that trusted referral into you that you know, some of you trust bringing them to your doors and hey, this is somebody worth talking to. What is it that works best for you for somebody to capture your attention and earn the right time on your calendar? HMM, that's interesting. I'd probably start by saying stop sending me these BS emails. Don't pretend like your friends with me, right, don't you know? Per My last email or per our conversation, there's no conversation going on. Why are you lying to...

...me? I immediately delete any and that is sad. I don't know who's teaching, Chad. It's not the guy teaching that I'm coming after. You know, and you should if I wasn't one teaching that you definitely I'd hand you the baseball bat if you're that was I mean, that's horrible form. Oh it's lying. Hey, yeah, I just did a with an SPP of sales. Got Even lead night and it's on. You'll find it on our website if you just google fitzmartincom a terrible sales emails. We had a blast. We did probably eight different types of terrible sales emails. So much fun. So yeah, so don't start there. But I think you've got to demonstrate you know what you're doing and, most importantly, you know me. So, for example, listen, listen to this. You're trying to sell to Shaun doyl, marketing and marketing sales advisor to lower middle market companies. If I get an email it says, hey, I want to Joe Smith, I want to introduce my company. We Blah Blah, blah, Blah Blah. I'm not going to read that, but if you send me this email or leave me this voice mail, Hey, I'm Sally Jones. We help agencies like you move from a forty percent billaboll efficiency ratio to sixty to seventy percent bill boll efficiation, billable efficiency ratio, through a context of consulting and sells assistance, and typically we achieve those results in thirteen months. Oh, you actually understand I care about billable efficiency ratio right now. I've been in this business for thirty years. I don't think I've ever had anybody approached me by starting with a metric that they know my space and my business enough that they can tell me what that metric is. I don't have to teach them right. So you you want to get my attention, and if I want to get your attention, I need to know what Chad Sanderson thinks about or what Joe Prospect thinks about, and I should know if my positioning is not so broad that I serve everybody. Don't. Don't tell me you serve everybody. That's also a lie. That's actually sounds a little bit desperate, but I mean tell me a number, just give me an indication that you know my space. Then I'm going to listen to you. I'll give you time. I love it all right. Last question. We'd call it our acceleration in sight. If there's one thing you could tell sales and marketing professionals, just one piece of advice. I don't everything we've talked about and everything you know experienced, just one piece of advice that you believe would help them if their targets or exceed them. What would it be and why? I'm assuming you mean besides higher either. Chad Sanderson to help you. Is that right? Yes, not where you're yeah, we want to go a little less obvious. Okay, okay, okay, I just went way past stage two, didn't. I no longer contemplating this at all. Oh yeah, I think that the acceleration insight I'd offer is make sure there's a point of view. I don't care if you use the cognitive marketing model. If...

...you want it, I'll offer you in a second a way to get it, download it, look at it, consider it, go on to Amazon and by changing for good. Figure it out yourself, hire somebody that's got a framework, like a Chad Sanderson. Just choose a point of view and then teach everybody from marketing sales and support it with technology and make sure you have one language. That's the fastest way to revenue. It's not more advertising. In fact, you might even cut costs. You just find one point of view and get everybody to the table. I love it and I could not agree more. So we shall. I'm where do you want us to send people if they want more information on you or the concepts we've talked about? What's going to be most beneficial for you. Where can we send them? Well, first I should tell them what you offered to do. Chad's offered to purchase a couple books for you. So the first few folks that come to fitzmartincom free help. Fitzmartincom free help, you will find a place you can plug in your email for free copy of shift. Shift as a book that was published last year by Rock Bench publishing, I of Nashville, and it's nineteen ideas for executives in charge of marketing but not trained for the task. On that same page you can also I'm opening. I'm too old, I don't have any secrets off to anything. There's I've got a discovery video series. You can watch videos to understand this consumer decision journey and this science a little bit better, and there's worksheets and tools there. It's all free. Have Fun, enjoy it and I promise I'm not going to rail on you by and make you go oh, I never said of given that guy my email. In fact, I think most of it's I don't think it's even gated. Just just come and enjoy it. Except the book is gated. I got to know your address if I'm going to mail you a book and thank you for doing that chat. That was nice of you. Yeah, no problem, son. I can't thank you enough for your time. Has Been an absolute pleasure avenue on the show. Oh Man, your podcast is changing lives and helping people and it's fun to be part of it. Thank you all right, everybody that does it. For this episode, you know, the drill be to be Rev exactcom sure with your friends, family co workers. Put your kids in front of it if you're tired of chasing around the house. Until next time we evalue something associates, we show all nothing but the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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