The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 5 years ago

Gabe Larsen on The 5 Key Components of a Cadence

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of people are fascinated by genetic structure. This is true whether that’s literal genetic material like the human genome or more metaphorical like the DNA of a sales process.

Breaking things down to their lowest level gives us a better idea of both what we’re working with and how to get the most out of it. Seeing how things function is useful for many industries, and sales is no exception.

It’s one thing to initiate a process like a sales cadence. It’s quite another to understand why you’re initiating it and how the moving parts of that sales cadence actually operate. The former is pretty hit-or-miss, while the latter gives you control over your process.

In this episode, Gabe Larsen, VP of Sales for InsideSales Labs, talks about the research his team has been doing to crack the genetic code of sales cadences.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Today on the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience, we're going to be speaking with Gabe Larson, VP of inside sales labs and host of the playmaker podcast, about sales cadences. What are they, how they should be structured for optimal effectiveness and, of course, why most people are getting them wrong. will also spend some time talking about sales innovation and how inside sales has set up the labs program to stay at the forefront of sales evolution. You're listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one gave. Thank you very much for taking the time and welcome to the show man. I'm excited, I love the topic and I'm excited to be with you guys. I'm a fan and I love talking sales. Yet it's our bread and butter, so of course we're excited to talk about it. But before we jump in, first question, and I'll be right up front, I stole this from you off of the playmaker. Ask a question that's a little off track, but let's talk about a defining moment in your life or career that kind of change directory for you as a lesson you learn that you keep coming back to. What was it and what lessons you take away from it? Yeah, you know, it's comfort zone. Man. When was it? Maybe seven years ago? Six years ago, I took a took a role in jet a, Saudi Arabia of all place. You know, I was the only employee. They wanted me to start an office out there and my wife just said what the hell or different and I didn't know if I should be doing it. But it was game changing, not only to get the international experience I got to set up the office. I ended up working on a on the Toyota Account. It led to a multiple promotions. I came back to the stage. But you know, one decision of getting out of your comfort zone, I think, can make all the difference. And you tie that back to sales. It's just every day. I would challenge somebody make do one thing that pushes you out of your comforts. Up Post an article on Linkedin. If you've never done it, you know, do a cold call and don't even do any research and see if you do it. Do something crazy. Cold calls out crazy, but you know, do something that pushes you because, I'm telling you, it'll pay dividends in the end accellently. And we see a lot of sales reps get stuck in there in their ruts, right, and so I'm curious. Let's talk about cadences. Let's start with a definition, because I we're hearing it a lot, right. We hear a lot of people talk about it. I throw it around. I'm curious how you know if you have hide look at inside sales and what you guys are doing is one of the leaders in this. And so how do you guys define cadences? Yeah, well, that was the problem, right. I mean we're I'm sitting back here and it's part of my job, right. We called inside sales labs. A lot of people are saying, if you know, you got white coats, got lab assistants and some rats in there to all funny, but none true. I mean, it's our research and best practice. So I'm the guy who gets to go to the clients and steal their secrets and bring them back and we do a research report, you know, once a month. Chad, I had a blast doing it. But we took a step back and all this buzz around outreach strategies or sales cadence and and we started pushing buttons on people, I mean just everyone's I mean no, and everyone kind of looked at it slightly different, although there was a lot of overlap. So we took a step back and said, what if we didn't do a survey? What if we actually went into our data, our pot of data. Now at inside sales we have what we call this neurallytics date or big data set. We got a hundred billion sales interactions and my team plays in it daily. We're weird weird visual of playing in the date of a code of prepentant rights. Long Story Short, we just picked and said want we look at about Ninezero companies, will look at Fourteenzero cadences and we'll see if we can basically break the DNA of a cadence up, but also come to a definition. And I gotta tell you we went through...

...probably I don't know, fifty iterations of a definition. I know that's a little bit long, but our definition is a sequence of activities to increase contact and qualification. And now, I know it sounds simple. Hopefully sounds simple. I could probably spend twenty minutes and I'll just spend thirty seconds. But guys, cades is a sequence of activities to increase is contact and qualification. A sequence means it's data driven. It's not something we just whip up. When it comes to sequence of activities, there's actually six activities that can be included in the cades. It's not just bone and social, it's phone and tax message and voicemel and email and social and high impact mailer's. High impact mailer's coming online very quickly. Now a lot of people say cadens is just about contact rates, but if you do it right you can also educate your buyer and thus the idea of increasing both contact and qualification. I no longer answered chat, but some there was some thought behind. Well not. I mean that's a tax on me, because we do, we see it, I mean and actually see that term getting used in is it outreach that io I think calls what what they put together as cadences. There's a lot of confusion. So clearing that up as a kind of a base point I think is a great starting point. But when you you know, if you if you take all those things that you mentioned, is it's something that as sales represent individual can do, or is it something that should be more organizational, at the organizational level in terms of those development of the cadences? Yeah, you know, I believe we are seeing this evolution of sales where, and that's thely, this idea of kind of playmaker, where you're almost the CEO of your own territory. I do believe in the future you're going to see more sales reps, even sales development reps, managing potentially like facebook adspend, you know, certainly sending mailers or door openers. I mean there is this idea that you've got to own it because you know twenty like it or not, it's your territory. So I a lot of the organizations want to mandate this, but truthfully, sales reps, they do it and they need to know how to own it. Well, I do you see that? I mean cadences to I think, at least for me, I know myself. Thank you. Psychotherapist, a little bit, probably better than most people out there, but a lot of the cadses that I run also take into account me as a person, like might like my personality, what I bring today looks. I don't want any part of that. cades, whether it be a mailer or the messaging in an article that goes out or something like that, to create this false impression and then you get on the phone in like wait a minute, yeah, you're a foul mouth Harley Riding Guy, like, wait, that's not what I thought I was getting right. So to those cadences have to be are they better and more powerful if they're more personalized to the person actually executing them? Yeah, I mean one line for you. personalization always trump's automation. I mean this is the scary world we're living in where. Look, my company sells some of these tools. I got a little bit careful myself, but you know, these reps. we want to become email marketers, and so we put together these can spams, you know, email templates and they send out on periodic dates and they're just generic templates and there's a place for it, don't get me wrong, but there's a balance of personalization and automation. If you're not careful, they say the average person's getting a hundred twenty one email, a data you got to stand out, and personalization should always trump automation. Oh Yeah, without a doubt, the personalization. And it takes the thing I love hearing is well, but it takes time. Well, Duh, it sales, all right, if you're doing the job. It takes time to do it and to do it right, especially to capture attention of people that you don't know. Amen, amender. That so okay. So let's see. You guys just published a recent study we did. You mentioned doing a monthly, but you guys identified five key components of a cadence and I'm wondering if you could help our audience understand those and how you guys settled on those five. Yeah, yeah, so that was kind of the part two of the study, right. So again we looked at about ninezero companies and actually, you'll see, we...

...actually we looked at the fortune one hundred. We didn't get all fortune five hundred, but we wanted to see what some of the best in class are doing. And so part two of the study that's coming out firsting next week is just what the cadence is of the fortune one hundred work. But the long and short, we looked at Ninezero companies, and that was about again, fourteenzero od it's in the definition. was just tightening the definition was one of our objectives. But the others, I said, was really kind of coming up with what we say is that the elements of a cadence, for the DNA of a cadence, because often times people say I got a cad and so I you know, I tempt them ten times. That's that's it right and and not truthfully, Chad. I'm like, I don't know. I mean maybe that is a cades, maybe it's just, you know, hitting people with a couple different activities. But when we have the team and we got a handful of researchers, when they were trying to splice and dice it, figure out what is a Caden's then just these five pillars emerged and they've become kind of the foundation for how we help companies build and start thinking about a caden. So those five pillars are attempts. I'm just what we talked about. That's going to be the total number of touches. Then you've got this concept of media methods us and that is the media pattern used like phone, voice mail, email, social, some of the different things and how you fit those together. Then you have duration. That's going to be the first activity to the last activity. Know, how long do you actually do this thing? Then you have spacing. It's some people like this is pretty detail, but if we're talking about making money, it should be detailed right right, spacing, and that's just the average time gap between different attempts. So I call on day one and then I email, or I call again on day three, or do I do day two? I mean, that's a big you know, it's pretty different than the last piece. And probably the x factor was content, and that was we analyzed thousands and thousands of emails and thousands and thousands of voice messages to understand. Okay, what is the content? PC? You have attempts, media, duration, spacing and content, and we really believe if you're serious about building the cadence, these are the five elements you're going to want to at least be thinking about to optimize, because we found that there's bad practices and there's good practice is when it comes to these five elements. Okay, so let's I want to be respectful the time. I would love to dive into each of them, but I'm curious with with attempts. And then I maybe this is a little preview of what's coming out in the next report, but what's your research shown to be the optimal amount of attempts? Well, this was the interesting I mean, you know, you can talk about it for a long time, but I'll try to make it short. That when it came to attempts, there was a real interesting thing that happened. I looked and I won't name names, but there was a study done by a company and they asked, how many attempts do you do on your typical lead? The number came out to be fifteen point five, and so I assumed that, you know, that's what people say they do, that's what actually they do. Well, we found that it was quite a bit under what people think they do. The average number of attempts per individual or per contact or is four o five. Now that's one point seven three phone calls and two point three two emails. So people are doing about for but they believe they're doing about three times, which is like now. The interesting thing is, though, I will say, and this is kind of this interesting bias it's going on, when we ran the numbers to figure out best practice. Best practice says it should be in the range of ten to fifteen. So interesting that people think they're doing about fifteen. They're really doing for but the data says they should be doing about fifteen. It's so kind of a weird they haven't going on there with actual data to gain. This is not is not theory or survey. This is actual behavioral data of, you know, real people doing real phone calls, etc. Etc. Well, and it's interesting. Right, people, I think, delude themselves a lot and in terms of what they're doing, they'll tell you they're doing fifteen because I don't want to have to pick up the phone. They don't want to have to draft another email. Right.

Well, it's I know. The thing is when I like things on social I like it like that. I keep liking of that, but that's every time I do that accounts for two and so I can see how they got to the got to the number of fifteen. Sometimes. So interesting. Okay, so what about the media? Is there best practice combination of text, social email phone calls that you guys uncovered? Yeah, so the mode, the the the typical was actually most people just leading with emails. You saw from the attempts you're almost doing double the number of emails that you are compared to phone calls. So is you think about media? Most people led with the very heavy email based cadence and that's kind of what we talked about before. It's easier, it's simpler, I don't have to personalize, I can just kind of plug it into these tools and just run away with it. We found best practice to actually be that call voicemail email approach. Now there's a little bit of art and how you design that, because again, if I'm doing a call, voicemail email and I'm doing ten to fifteen touches a certainly will talk about creations facing and how that works. But do I do a call first, an email first? Of voicemail first? There's some intricacies there. That where there's a little bit of art, science and is it is there. Do you see like, do people actually return voice mails? Have you seen I mean I've always used it more of a hey, I'm gonna I'm so and so, you know, fifteen seconds and I'm going to follow up with an email. It. Don't not expecting them to actually die on me back, but did you did you see that to be true, or did you see other things in the research. Yeah, you know, it's truthfully, we found couple things. On voicemail number one, it is often best paired. Mean you're going to get better results. When I say better results, I mean responses as well as potentially additional contact or conversations if you pair it with an email. So kind of what you were you were just talking about. But one of the things we did want to figure out is, you know, is kind of like the voicemail dead concept, and we found two interesting things just real quick. On voicemail number one, forty two point eight percent of voice mails were over thirty seconds. So a lot of people leaving fairly long voice messages in that, you know, without getting into a lot of detail, that's bad. You want to be with voicemail. You got to keep it pretty close to the the eighteen to thirty second Max Max kind of number. But we still in you know, without again get into a lot of detail, a lot of people still use in voice messages. Almost fifty percent of of cadence has had a voice message. So a lot of people saying it is dead or it's not being utilized, but certainly that would be what we've seen again from kind of this general, General Market Study. Now that does change. In fact, the actual number fifty two point two percent of phone calls. How to voice message is we look to different activity, is a lot of voice messages being utilized kind of across the board. Excellent and so okay. So now let's look at duration. So you've got, you know, you got a ten to fifteen touches. What kind of time frame you spread that over for optimal results? Yeah, so the duration. Again, this was another interesting one where, when we looked at some of the industry data, most people said, yeah, you know, my average duration of my cadences is twenty days. I mean I typically space my, you know, about fifteen touches over twenty days as well. People, again, I think we're kind of tricking themselves. We found a duration to be at four point eight nine days, so just kind of a full business week, if you will. So again, about four time, you know, quite a bit less than the twenty that they thought that they did. Very similar to the attempts, though. Best practice put it more in that fourteen to twenty one range. So exactly like attempts. People believe they're doing something they're not, but they should be excellent and then spacing. Yeah, it's a kind of final it up here. So spacing optimal was in that one to three range. You want to keep it a little bit shorter. There's something that we see in the data, the psychic, this psycho the psychology of immediacy. You know, if we think about cadence of educating somebody, you run into a problem if you say I touch him one week and then I'll touch him for another two weeks. I mean...

...to, I can't remember what I did yesterday right. So, because of this top of mind awareness and an educational aspect of CADENCE, you want to typically you run a cadence again for a couple weeks and try to keep those touches fairly close to each other, couple days between and then you stop it and then you again. You can recycle it. Maybe a month or two laters, run another cadence. But these people, and I can look in at the data right now, we we had some people who they said, you know, one email one week, three weeks, two weeks later, another email, than a phone call two days later. It's like, Whoa, what the like? This guy's just shooting from the hip here. I assume it's a guy weird things like that. So anyways, that's the spacing. And then last I'll just finished off on the content. Average prospecting email was sitting at three hundred sixty two words. Now that seems like a lot, but again you've got a lot of marketing help in there. Now we really did take a lot of effort to eliminate a lot of marketing emails, because marketing emails, if you take in all emails, that number jumps significantly. So we really tried to push it. Team went through and spliced and dice to just get quote unquote, more sales emails. So three hundred sixty two was the average, and then twenty three seconds average on the voice message across the boarding and a lot of voicemails over thirty seconds. But on average it wasn't too bad and we found best practice to be a different than that. So under three hundred words is where you want to keep those emails and under thirty seconds you want to keep those voicemails. So that's kind of those five elements and where most of the market was and then where you should probably be considering you want to be if you want to follow more quote unquote best practices excellent, accellent. So I I'm curious what was the most surprising thing for you in that particular report that you came across? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know. There wasn't too many surprising things. There was a couple moments of like finally we've got a definition and finally I can say to somebody you know, and I say when I say cades, I kind of know what I'm talking about. But I would probably say the voice mail thing was the you know, the fifty two point two percent of people were using voice messages. That was probably because, I mean I just get a lot of people say voicemails dead, nobody's use a voice while I don't use it. Nobody use it. It's like Whoa wow. I mean more than half of people are using it on very frequently. Well, everybody still saying cold callings, that to picking up the phones. Yeah, I think the biggest Aha was what we've kind of hit on with those the perception versus the the actual reality. Get I follow some of these companies who produce surveys of what people say and you know, what people say are best practice and how people who do social selling, you know, say they sell more and but sometimes I always wondering what God is Survey Research. It's based on what people believe, and so to see that there was such a difference between what people sat on a survey and what people are actually doing, it just made me say Yaikes, you know we better and and we run surveys as part of our team. So you got it. You probably just need to take everything something but the great as salt, because that was just it wasn't even close. I mean we're talking miles, duration of twenty days. Really it's four and a half days. I mean, wow, that's terrible. Imagine your board sets a target of twenty percent revenue growth in eighteen months. So something will have to change with your sales team. How do you beat your target? Value Prime solutions can help ensure your managers and reps are leveraging a sales framework that focuses on value, not price. Don't assume you have it all figured out. Don't wait until it's too late. Visit Value Prime Solutionscom and let them help here and talk about inside sales. I think I understand how I'm probably wrong. What the labs portion of what you guys business is doing? How it operates this stuff, but I'd love for autens understand how that kind of plays in the marketing and sales structure. It inside sales in and of itself, right, that innovation, the data constantly improving. I'm curious how you guys are structured and how where the mission for it came...

...from. Yeah, you know, it's funny. We we so it was part of part of my my thought process, and from a structural stamp point it does just stand on its own. You know, we read Clayton Christensen's kind of his his concept on disruption. Right, I'm sure you're familiar some what them with Clayton Christensen and you know he talks about often seeing companies go through this transition where they want to start focusing on the enterprise. And if you're in the text space and you don't know the buzz word about, you got to be getting enterprise deals and you're you're not in the text base when everybody the more profitable enterprise deals. And but he talks about in that dock, you know, in his piece, that is you move to the enterprise, to more profitability, then ankle biders, you know, start to come and they they start to take your smb in mid market business and and he said the only way to solve the only way to not lose that kind of market dominance is to actually set up another entity outside of its own with almost its full marketing and sales and another department to kind of make sure that you stay ahead of the game and you don't get quote unquote disrupt it. So so truthfully, the executive leaders, you know, we sat down and said, guys, how do we make sure that we stay on top of the game? And so lab sits right. I report right into the executive team, into the founder, and we've got just a handful of people. We don't I mean I participate with marketing, I participate with sales, but we have a different office and we run it is a true innovation lab. So we look for the hottest companies and try to investigate and do those again. We do a research report once a month. We look at our hundred billion sales interactions and then we run experiments. So I work, we work with our own sales team and with our customers to run actual, quote unquote experiments to see what is working. So we talked a little bit about high impact mailers. That's one of the things that's been on our mind lately because it's such a trend that's hitting the space and so the problemo time back mailers is not on. Gifts are treated equal and there's actually five levels of I impact malers of people aren't aware of. You can do hand written no cards all the way up to customize gifts, but there's a variety of impact and personalization and cost associated with that. So we want to help to find that and to do that we felt like we need to kind of follow Clayton Christiansen and get a slightly different group. That is kind of that quote unqual innovation think team, kind of loud entity and it is so fun. I just I just give you know, dink around and and Tak her with different things and check out, kind of stay up on the ladies and I love it. It's been a blast. The innovation side of stuff is always been amazing to me. I spent the last ten years working with companies on our innovation labs and things of that nature. So it's nice to see it actually in the sales space. It's not something you see a lot, right. I mean when we were working with I did some work with Minnesota Vikings and they were billy getting ready able to big mixed use new headquarters, training facility, all of this stuff. And Todd Katholish was the CTO at the time and we started talking about how they were going to create an innovation lab because, interestingly enough, they're a football team. Now, once you see me you would think, wow, you should be a football guy. I'm totally not a football guy, but but I'm as big as todd, right six to two hundred and sixty pounds, and todd and I we're talking and he's like look, here's our goal. Is Not to be the best football team in the NFL. Our goal is to be a business that happens to own a football team and in order to do that they we're going to have some pretty serious cultural changes that to do so we started talking about innovation labs. Setting them up outside totally makes sense. I'm curious how you guys actually take those learnings and roll them back into the operations of inside sales. Are you these are some formalized process that you do there, or is it just kind of more, you know, organic? Yeah, you know, we actually created a new I appreciate you. See you don't see it in sales very often because I feel like when I'm I'm the guy in the room and I say I'm like from insight sales labs. You know, like I said, I get...

...these these these kind of dirty jokes things. You know, it's like yeah, I mean I've seriously heard it a thousand times, but so nobody gets it. You know, if I say I'm part of marketing and I'm part of like content, they're like, oh, yeah, I get it, but it's not it's not really that because again, it's got these multiple prongs. But one of the main ideas that we've kind of reincorporated is we do believe that the the world of sales in a lot of cases is over specialized and you've got into this siload approach where, you know, we went so specialized with with, you know, lead reacher researchers and sales flop and reps and s andb reps men market reps and enterprise reps and film reps and sales operating. You know, it's like wow, okay, we got really specialized created a lot of silos. So we've brought it back in house and created what we called growth team, and that growth team is more centralized. So it's more focused around a you know, think of it like a more segmentation where marketing, a sales, a customer s success and an innovation or a laps person all report into one individual and we look at it more like that. And so in a product person fits into that EXCEP. So this growth team is is a slightly different structure and with one of my team participating in that, we look at think of it like we look at mid market more holistically. You know, not how sales runs and how marketing runs, but it's how the growth team runs and the growth team overseas. All of our quote unquote, me a bit market business, for example. So I'd probably say that's the biggest difference is I do a weekly operations meeting and then a monthly governance meeting and I've got all my peers across the different entities and so more so than every the communication just flows because all my learnings my product team. I was just on this this meeting this morning with my product team because I had done a podcast with a very hot company and so I brought it up in the meeting and they said we're thinking about integrating that. So we jumped on and that will potentially be an integration partner. So I lead out on that and bring it to the product. So but it fits into this growth model of a weekly operations and then a monthly governance meeting with all kind of the heads of statement. It's been very effective as ours communications. It's a fascinating approach to me, right, because, I said, you don't see it a lot in sales, right, but that concept of innovation, I see a lot of companies have a tendency to want to bring it outside expertise, right, and that's and that's great. I mean I get that. I just that. Just spoke to the Sea of the AOPA who used to work at Harley and he's all about bringing everything in house. Right, you want to have everything in house. But on sales, is it just that we're too skeptical? I mean, I what is it about says people that that when you know you said, you get those jokes when you walk into the room and a minute you bring up innovation, their eyes kind of roll back in their head, right, and you've got to worry, you got to call one one or something. I'm just kind of curious. Why do you think that is? I don't know. We're still yeah, I mean having done it now for I've only done it for a year, you know, or a couple different anstate inside sales. But the truth of it is we're still going through kind of that crossing the chasm motion of of subjective, gut driven filled sales where it was kind of like hey, let's go on the golf course, smoke stogies and shake hand, you know, kind of that model, to this model that I think people see but they just can't really grasp it, because Ai and data is is a buzz word, but they've not seen it. They've seen it in Netflix, they've seen it in Google maps, but they've not seen it in the work. We did a big AI study and people are thinking about it, but they're not grasping it. And so we're preaching in sales a new world, a new opportunity. That says truly think, iron man, that you are encapsulated, you still drive it. I don't, I won't ever believe that sales will be replaced by machines, but I do see very much it's happening in small areas, the iron man approach where I've got a sister done and I become a super sales person. And so you're just getting, and I don't mean to knock the you know, a generation, you know potentially a little older,...

...but is we move and more millennials leadership, I better be careful of the leadership. I think you'll see more of an acceptance because it's going there. But what we are saying is that the old way of doing sales subjectively isn't going to work and we're preaching a labs and experimentation. I mean, Ay, be split testing for sales. If I say that in a room of sales people they say what the Hell, and I'm saying, what the Hell Are you doing right? You got to be running your own experiments and if you're not, use a data and you're not being having technology and able you. So I mean to meet Jaid that. That's it. It's the old way versus the new way and you're seeing kind of this this change of the guard here. So it's interesting to me the the you know, adoption of technology or lack of adoption of technology from some sales refs. I like that iron man analogy. I'll probably steal that too, but I'll give you credit for it, but I'll probably still don't. It's a good movie. But one of the things you said about you know, you've seen too much specialization. You guys have kind of identified this and I've spent a lot of time talking to clients about okay, well, I got my str team that does this and I got my BDR team that does this and I got my account managers, my count refs in large scale organizations. Why do you think that is the that's kind of become the de facto, is it? I originally thought it was because they needed a career path for guys that got out of school they didn't have sales experience. Will will put them in an str role, make them smile and dial and and burn it up. But I'm curious if maybe you think there's another reason why they tried to go down that path, because to me it seems very segmented and a lot of handoff points. As you if you have an str who gets a meeting and then you have to hand it off to somebody else to qualify and somebody else to actually you're breaking the chain of that relationship and I think as more people are focused on that total sales experience, experiences that they're having that gets dangerous and I'm kind of curious what you think. Why the specialization happen in the first place and how how do they go back to an iron man approach? Yeah, yeah, I mean I think you just saw again you've got to watch the spectrum kind of go back and forth. So I think we started again as this generalist model. I mean, you know, you've got these kind of filled sales reps and they were just doing basically everything and that was, you know, a lot of people want to say that was a hundred years ago, but I think it was more like twenty, twenty thirty. So, but you saw that true generalist model and I think when we started to see the advantage of this specialized model, I think we want the other way and I think sales it's certainly in the text based sales force let out on that right. They just said, oh my goodness, we can go they just specialized everything. Talk. You know, we hired a lot of sales force leaders inside sales and without naming names, certainly, one of the things most of them would tell you is that they have they actually identified that one of the things they've gone too far on was, you know, potentially specially created too many sidelows and it again. This is may be more based on their opinion than date. I'm not sure. But so I think what you're finding now is just just a course car a natural correction. We were too far one way. Now we've gone too far another way. Now we're trying to find this generalized specialist model. Is kind of what we've been referring to it, as you know. I mean you still want to have some of that in there, but you've got to find a way to kind of have people know about more things around them so that you can find this ballance. I won't go to the place to say we got to go back, but we've got to find a way to merge the two, two extremes together a little bit. Yeah, a little bit more towards them met all. I mean that again, that iron man, analogy man and technology enables so much, but at the heart of it you're still you still have to find a way to get to that human connection. Right. Well, they had people. Yeah, the thing, the iron man thing. I think you're going to see that come on really interesting because part of the problem we've run into is,...

...you know, crm in general. Right, a lot of study shown that crm used to just going down. Why? Because it's not really enabling. You know, we're giving, we're not getting. The problem is you got all these technologies being built on crm that are giving, but they're they're also sigload that that they're not written. In a lot of cases they're actually decreasing sales productivity. All of them say their sales accelerators. I know they're actually sales decelerators and a lot of instances and we probably need to get off the air us. But Anyway, I think you're going to see a big trend more to the individual right. Think Sports Science, where a sales wrapped it. You know, a Lebron James can go about as work week is. You know, he can go into a game and he's got sensors on them and we're still tracking all his shot in his velocity and is modeling, but all that stuff can be fed back to him almost real time. There's a basketball now that exists that has data sensors on it that can real time tell you if you're you know, your shot process and form is correct. That's the kind of play that's the iron man. Right now we're too focus on the systems it's the shiny object crm and sales acceleration technology. We got to get back to the individual and enable them and do it in a way that's not disruptive, because right now, I'm telling you, go ask how many sales reps love you is crm. You can big fat zero. I generalize. I'm being a little decetious, but I know you're right. Empower the individual rather than focus so much on these. I mean we talked about it automating emails, and it's like, come on, iron man Jarvis the suit it supports versus. I don't know you know this, it's just it. We got to get more iron men and I think you'll see that. I think you'll see. Yeah, I've never met and when I was an individual contributor back in the day and when I ran teams and built them, I've never seen a sales wrap willingly adopt a technology that got in their way, right, that made it harder for them to sell. I if I had a dollar for every time I said Hey, have you updated your sales force forecast, I would be living on a beach somewhere right. So No, look at a lot of the tools and insights it. You know, I think we fell into some of that trap to I mean, I won't say we're perfect, but we did a big study where we went back to the users and said, you know, is our tool getting in your way? And truthfully, we had some strong feedback. So we you know, in the last two years we released a full different suite of tools. It's a chrome extension that follows the Repin you know, I don't want to say where the the beaming icon or something, but God, we've got to get we've all got to make a concerted effort because I know, I mean I'm on the road all the time and you talk to Reps. it's not just sales force. A lot of these tools are like yeah, it actually disrupts, you know, rather than support. So we we got to find a way to just work. If you're a millennial, especially, you got to work in my day. I'm not right, I'm not going. You got to work with me, right, it'll be interesting, man. Yeah, we could talk about this for hours s sort again, I want to be respectfully your time. I do appreciate so two questions towards the end. We get you know, at the end of the day you are as an executive your your target. That means people want to sell. Do you you're a prospect? Sorry, targets, probably a little to it present. No, no, not, I'm I don't have Tom for to shoot me up. Mission impossible sound? No, but there are people out there that want to you know, that want to spend time. You See, if you've got problems, I can solve. So on and so far, and I'm curious if you're in a very unique position. But I'm very curious when somebody approaches you and they and you don't know them, there's not a warm intro or whatever, what's the most effective way to get your attention? What do you find yourself responding to? Is it the voicemails, emails? What seems to work to get your attention and build credibility? Yeah, and well, this is almost across the board and I've got some good data to back it up. But it is just value as value for value. You have to now approach people and give them something. I mean, if you can get if you would approach me and say hey, I all introduce you to a really cool company, a podcast guest. All you know, I've got some research that...

I want to share with you and I'll tailor it to your organization. You you give me value. I don't care the channel. I actually do look at every single email that comes in. I got a hundred sixty two emails yesterday. I do look every night. I do go through every single email and if there's something and I've had people do it, I saw your podcast. Here's a great guess. I think I'd recommend to you. Wow, I listen to that value and I just highlighted three, you know, introduced it. Or give me a podcast is or show me some research, and I'm not talking about research, I'm talking about research relevant to me right now, to tach or. You know, if on telecom that kind of value, I will give you value back. But it's now partnership is the new leadership, right. So you know you've got to you want to be a leader, you want to be a leader sales, you want to lead your team, you want to be a leader in your organization. You got to find more partnerships. And so people think I started the podcast, you know, they're like, Oh, you must have wanted to be, you know, some sort of thought leader, and I'm like now it's just actually trying to sales. You know, you know how effective it is to reach out to somebody and say I got tenzero listeners a month on my podcast. You want to be on? You want to be on the PODCAST. Oh, by the way, we sell technology. That's kick. But so, I mean, but I gave them value and in turn, I deserve to have a I've earned the right. I paid the price. So I do believe partnership is the new leadership. Excellent, excellent. All right. Last question. We call it our acceleration insight. So if you can think of one thing that you could tell sales or marketing professionals that you think would make them more effective, hit their targets, you know, achieve those big checks in those goals, what would it be? And why? Yeah, man, it's I mean we use this as our motto, right. I've kind of adopted this concept playmakers, and I say, you know, success is just one play away, and what that means is it's you know, when you think about sales, I love this concept of you know, I'm I'm I'm a little bit of an ex athlete. I got to be careful with that, because what I mean by that is I'm an x high school lackfully, it's not college. It was high school, but I was good man. I got all state, I got all state bells and whistles on my walls. I'd see a little bit, but it all series this. I got a little bit of a sports background, the concept of plays and play books. You know, sales is got to stop shooting from the HIP. You know, when you attack an enemy, when you attack an opponent, they come at you with this, you sure as how better have a play. And so I love to see when people run a strategic outreach initiative that thinks about what's my strategy and my target audience and what do I have to offer, how I give value to get it? What's my cagings and what am my results and what systems can I utilize? Then we actually run an outreach player campaign. That's the thing that I'm seeing is making the biggest difference in sales. When you think strategically about how you want to get somebody and you run a play rather than shoot from the hip, makes all the difference. Excellent, accellent. I really appreciate the time today. If somebody wants to get copies of the latest studies from inside Sales Laves, what's the best place to go. Yeah, you want to go to you know? Certainly you know check me out if you ever want to have a conversation. You got me on Linkedin. It's just gable ours on Linkedin, but hit the sales insider blog and you'll get the exact summary. If you want to go deeper, you can go to labs dot inside salescom and that's where we highlight our our experiments and some of our research. So between the sales inside or blog and labs do inside sales ocom, we find some stuff excellent and and best way to get a hold of you linkedin or email, it sounds like. As long as they're providing value, you're open to any channel. Yeah, you know I'm usually open to chat, but that that is the key. If you come at me with a relevant question or something that's intriguing, I'm always happy to have the conversation and I love the play. Truthfully, just hey, I wanted to ask you a question. I wanted to you know...

...you approach me as a someone you're trying to learn from. I'm always happy to teach, but don't think you can take without giving right excellent acts. All again, I can't thank you enough for the time today. It's been great having you on the show. Appreciate it, my man, and any time I expect the return visit as well. So should you got it? You gotta all right, everybody that does it for today's episode. If you haven't, please check out games podcast playmaker. I cannot recommend it high enough. It is a phenomenal listen. It helps me get through the damn elliptical every morning. It's it's fun to listen to. Check us out at BB REV exactcom. Share the episode with friends, Families Co workers. If you like what's here, please leave us a review. We do use those reviews to determine what guests to bring on for you. But until next time, we have value prime solutions with you and all nothing but the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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