The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Gabe Larsen on The 5 Key Components of a Cadence

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of people are fascinated by genetic structure. This is true whether that’s literal genetic material like the human genome or more metaphorical like the DNA of a sales process.

Breaking things down to their lowest level gives us a better idea of both what we’re working with and how to get the most out of it. Seeing how things function is useful for many industries, and sales is no exception.

It’s one thing to initiate a process like a sales cadence. It’s quite another to understand why you’re initiating it and how the moving parts of that sales cadence actually operate. The former is pretty hit-or-miss, while the latter gives you control over your process.

In this episode, Gabe Larsen, VP of Sales for InsideSales Labs, talks about the research his team has been doing to crack the genetic code of sales cadences.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Today on the B Tob Revenue ExecutiveExperience, we're going to be speaking with Gabe Larson, VP of inside saleslabs and host of the playmaker podcast, about sales cadences. What are they, how they should be structured for optimal effectiveness and, of course, whymost people are getting them wrong. will also spend some time talking about salesinnovation and how inside sales has set up the labs program to stay at theforefront of sales evolution. You're listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, apodcast dedicated to helping the executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've cometo the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, onegave. Thank you very much for taking the time and welcome to the showman. I'm excited, I love the topic and I'm excited to be withyou guys. I'm a fan and I love talking sales. Yet it's ourbread and butter, so of course we're excited to talk about it. Butbefore we jump in, first question, and I'll be right up front,I stole this from you off of the playmaker. Ask a question that's alittle off track, but let's talk about a defining moment in your life orcareer that kind of change directory for you as a lesson you learn that youkeep coming back to. What was it and what lessons you take away fromit? Yeah, you know, it's comfort zone. Man. When wasit? Maybe seven years ago? Six years ago, I took a tooka role in jet a, Saudi Arabia of all place. You know,I was the only employee. They wanted me to start an office out thereand my wife just said what the hell or different and I didn't know ifI should be doing it. But it was game changing, not only toget the international experience I got to set up the office. I ended upworking on a on the Toyota Account. It led to a multiple promotions.I came back to the stage. But you know, one decision of gettingout of your comfort zone, I think, can make all the difference. Andyou tie that back to sales. It's just every day. I wouldchallenge somebody make do one thing that pushes you out of your comforts. UpPost an article on Linkedin. If you've never done it, you know,do a cold call and don't even do any research and see if you doit. Do something crazy. Cold calls out crazy, but you know,do something that pushes you because, I'm telling you, it'll pay dividends inthe end accellently. And we see a lot of sales reps get stuck inthere in their ruts, right, and so I'm curious. Let's talk aboutcadences. Let's start with a definition, because I we're hearing it a lot, right. We hear a lot of people talk about it. I throwit around. I'm curious how you know if you have hide look at insidesales and what you guys are doing is one of the leaders in this.And so how do you guys define cadences? Yeah, well, that was theproblem, right. I mean we're I'm sitting back here and it's partof my job, right. We called inside sales labs. A lot ofpeople are saying, if you know, you got white coats, got labassistants and some rats in there to all funny, but none true. Imean, it's our research and best practice. So I'm the guy who gets togo to the clients and steal their secrets and bring them back and wedo a research report, you know, once a month. Chad, Ihad a blast doing it. But we took a step back and all thisbuzz around outreach strategies or sales cadence and and we started pushing buttons on people, I mean just everyone's I mean no, and everyone kind of looked at itslightly different, although there was a lot of overlap. So we tooka step back and said, what if we didn't do a survey? Whatif we actually went into our data, our pot of data. Now atinside sales we have what we call this neurallytics date or big data set.We got a hundred billion sales interactions and my team plays in it daily.We're weird weird visual of playing in the date of a code of prepentant rights. Long Story Short, we just picked and said want we look at aboutNinezero companies, will look at Fourteenzero cadences and we'll see if we can basicallybreak the DNA of a cadence up, but also come to a definition.And I gotta tell you we went through...

...probably I don't know, fifty iterationsof a definition. I know that's a little bit long, but our definitionis a sequence of activities to increase contact and qualification. And now, Iknow it sounds simple. Hopefully sounds simple. I could probably spend twenty minutes andI'll just spend thirty seconds. But guys, cades is a sequence ofactivities to increase is contact and qualification. A sequence means it's data driven.It's not something we just whip up. When it comes to sequence of activities, there's actually six activities that can be included in the cades. It's notjust bone and social, it's phone and tax message and voicemel and email andsocial and high impact mailer's. High impact mailer's coming online very quickly. Nowa lot of people say cadens is just about contact rates, but if youdo it right you can also educate your buyer and thus the idea of increasingboth contact and qualification. I no longer answered chat, but some there wassome thought behind. Well not. I mean that's a tax on me,because we do, we see it, I mean and actually see that termgetting used in is it outreach that io I think calls what what they puttogether as cadences. There's a lot of confusion. So clearing that up asa kind of a base point I think is a great starting point. Butwhen you you know, if you if you take all those things that youmentioned, is it's something that as sales represent individual can do, or isit something that should be more organizational, at the organizational level in terms ofthose development of the cadences? Yeah, you know, I believe we areseeing this evolution of sales where, and that's thely, this idea of kindof playmaker, where you're almost the CEO of your own territory. I dobelieve in the future you're going to see more sales reps, even sales developmentreps, managing potentially like facebook adspend, you know, certainly sending mailers ordoor openers. I mean there is this idea that you've got to own itbecause you know twenty like it or not, it's your territory. So I alot of the organizations want to mandate this, but truthfully, sales reps, they do it and they need to know how to own it. Well, I do you see that? I mean cadences to I think, atleast for me, I know myself. Thank you. Psychotherapist, a littlebit, probably better than most people out there, but a lot of thecadses that I run also take into account me as a person, like mightlike my personality, what I bring today looks. I don't want any partof that. cades, whether it be a mailer or the messaging in anarticle that goes out or something like that, to create this false impression and thenyou get on the phone in like wait a minute, yeah, you'rea foul mouth Harley Riding Guy, like, wait, that's not what I thoughtI was getting right. So to those cadences have to be are theybetter and more powerful if they're more personalized to the person actually executing them?Yeah, I mean one line for you. personalization always trump's automation. I meanthis is the scary world we're living in where. Look, my companysells some of these tools. I got a little bit careful myself, butyou know, these reps. we want to become email marketers, and sowe put together these can spams, you know, email templates and they sendout on periodic dates and they're just generic templates and there's a place for it, don't get me wrong, but there's a balance of personalization and automation.If you're not careful, they say the average person's getting a hundred twenty oneemail, a data you got to stand out, and personalization should always trumpautomation. Oh Yeah, without a doubt, the personalization. And it takes thething I love hearing is well, but it takes time. Well,Duh, it sales, all right, if you're doing the job. Ittakes time to do it and to do it right, especially to capture attentionof people that you don't know. Amen, amender. That so okay. Solet's see. You guys just published a recent study we did. Youmentioned doing a monthly, but you guys identified five key components of a cadenceand I'm wondering if you could help our audience understand those and how you guyssettled on those five. Yeah, yeah, so that was kind of the parttwo of the study, right. So again we looked at about ninezerocompanies and actually, you'll see, we...

...actually we looked at the fortune onehundred. We didn't get all fortune five hundred, but we wanted to seewhat some of the best in class are doing. And so part two ofthe study that's coming out firsting next week is just what the cadence is ofthe fortune one hundred work. But the long and short, we looked atNinezero companies, and that was about again, fourteenzero od it's in the definition.was just tightening the definition was one of our objectives. But the others, I said, was really kind of coming up with what we say isthat the elements of a cadence, for the DNA of a cadence, becauseoften times people say I got a cad and so I you know, Itempt them ten times. That's that's it right and and not truthfully, Chad. I'm like, I don't know. I mean maybe that is a cades, maybe it's just, you know, hitting people with a couple different activities. But when we have the team and we got a handful of researchers,when they were trying to splice and dice it, figure out what is aCaden's then just these five pillars emerged and they've become kind of the foundation forhow we help companies build and start thinking about a caden. So those fivepillars are attempts. I'm just what we talked about. That's going to bethe total number of touches. Then you've got this concept of media methods usand that is the media pattern used like phone, voice mail, email,social, some of the different things and how you fit those together. Thenyou have duration. That's going to be the first activity to the last activity. Know, how long do you actually do this thing? Then you havespacing. It's some people like this is pretty detail, but if we're talkingabout making money, it should be detailed right right, spacing, and that'sjust the average time gap between different attempts. So I call on day one andthen I email, or I call again on day three, or doI do day two? I mean, that's a big you know, it'spretty different than the last piece. And probably the x factor was content,and that was we analyzed thousands and thousands of emails and thousands and thousands ofvoice messages to understand. Okay, what is the content? PC? Youhave attempts, media, duration, spacing and content, and we really believeif you're serious about building the cadence, these are the five elements you're goingto want to at least be thinking about to optimize, because we found thatthere's bad practices and there's good practice is when it comes to these five elements. Okay, so let's I want to be respectful the time. I wouldlove to dive into each of them, but I'm curious with with attempts.And then I maybe this is a little preview of what's coming out in thenext report, but what's your research shown to be the optimal amount of attempts? Well, this was the interesting I mean, you know, you cantalk about it for a long time, but I'll try to make it short. That when it came to attempts, there was a real interesting thing thathappened. I looked and I won't name names, but there was a studydone by a company and they asked, how many attempts do you do onyour typical lead? The number came out to be fifteen point five, andso I assumed that, you know, that's what people say they do,that's what actually they do. Well, we found that it was quite abit under what people think they do. The average number of attempts per individualor per contact or is four o five. Now that's one point seven three phonecalls and two point three two emails. So people are doing about for butthey believe they're doing about three times, which is like now. The interestingthing is, though, I will say, and this is kind ofthis interesting bias it's going on, when we ran the numbers to figure outbest practice. Best practice says it should be in the range of ten tofifteen. So interesting that people think they're doing about fifteen. They're really doingfor but the data says they should be doing about fifteen. It's so kindof a weird they haven't going on there with actual data to gain. Thisis not is not theory or survey. This is actual behavioral data of,you know, real people doing real phone calls, etc. Etc. Well, and it's interesting. Right, people, I think, delude themselves a lotand in terms of what they're doing, they'll tell you they're doing fifteen becauseI don't want to have to pick up the phone. They don't wantto have to draft another email. Right.

Well, it's I know. Thething is when I like things on social I like it like that.I keep liking of that, but that's every time I do that accounts fortwo and so I can see how they got to the got to the numberof fifteen. Sometimes. So interesting. Okay, so what about the media? Is there best practice combination of text, social email phone calls that you guysuncovered? Yeah, so the mode, the the the typical was actually mostpeople just leading with emails. You saw from the attempts you're almost doingdouble the number of emails that you are compared to phone calls. So isyou think about media? Most people led with the very heavy email based cadenceand that's kind of what we talked about before. It's easier, it's simpler, I don't have to personalize, I can just kind of plug it intothese tools and just run away with it. We found best practice to actually bethat call voicemail email approach. Now there's a little bit of art andhow you design that, because again, if I'm doing a call, voicemailemail and I'm doing ten to fifteen touches a certainly will talk about creations facingand how that works. But do I do a call first, an emailfirst? Of voicemail first? There's some intricacies there. That where there's alittle bit of art, science and is it is there. Do you seelike, do people actually return voice mails? Have you seen I mean I've alwaysused it more of a hey, I'm gonna I'm so and so,you know, fifteen seconds and I'm going to follow up with an email.It. Don't not expecting them to actually die on me back, but didyou did you see that to be true, or did you see other things inthe research. Yeah, you know, it's truthfully, we found couple things. On voicemail number one, it is often best paired. Mean you'regoing to get better results. When I say better results, I mean responsesas well as potentially additional contact or conversations if you pair it with an email. So kind of what you were you were just talking about. But oneof the things we did want to figure out is, you know, iskind of like the voicemail dead concept, and we found two interesting things justreal quick. On voicemail number one, forty two point eight percent of voicemails were over thirty seconds. So a lot of people leaving fairly long voicemessages in that, you know, without getting into a lot of detail,that's bad. You want to be with voicemail. You got to keep itpretty close to the the eighteen to thirty second Max Max kind of number.But we still in you know, without again get into a lot of detail, a lot of people still use in voice messages. Almost fifty percent ofof cadence has had a voice message. So a lot of people saying itis dead or it's not being utilized, but certainly that would be what we'veseen again from kind of this general, General Market Study. Now that doeschange. In fact, the actual number fifty two point two percent of phonecalls. How to voice message is we look to different activity, is alot of voice messages being utilized kind of across the board. Excellent and sookay. So now let's look at duration. So you've got, you know,you got a ten to fifteen touches. What kind of time frame you spreadthat over for optimal results? Yeah, so the duration. Again, thiswas another interesting one where, when we looked at some of the industrydata, most people said, yeah, you know, my average duration ofmy cadences is twenty days. I mean I typically space my, you know, about fifteen touches over twenty days as well. People, again, Ithink we're kind of tricking themselves. We found a duration to be at fourpoint eight nine days, so just kind of a full business week, ifyou will. So again, about four time, you know, quite abit less than the twenty that they thought that they did. Very similar tothe attempts, though. Best practice put it more in that fourteen to twentyone range. So exactly like attempts. People believe they're doing something they're not, but they should be excellent and then spacing. Yeah, it's a kindof final it up here. So spacing optimal was in that one to threerange. You want to keep it a little bit shorter. There's something thatwe see in the data, the psychic, this psycho the psychology of immediacy.You know, if we think about cadence of educating somebody, you runinto a problem if you say I touch him one week and then I'll touchhim for another two weeks. I mean...

...to, I can't remember what Idid yesterday right. So, because of this top of mind awareness and aneducational aspect of CADENCE, you want to typically you run a cadence again fora couple weeks and try to keep those touches fairly close to each other,couple days between and then you stop it and then you again. You canrecycle it. Maybe a month or two laters, run another cadence. Butthese people, and I can look in at the data right now, wewe had some people who they said, you know, one email one week, three weeks, two weeks later, another email, than a phone calltwo days later. It's like, Whoa, what the like? This guy's justshooting from the hip here. I assume it's a guy weird things likethat. So anyways, that's the spacing. And then last I'll just finished offon the content. Average prospecting email was sitting at three hundred sixty twowords. Now that seems like a lot, but again you've got a lot ofmarketing help in there. Now we really did take a lot of effortto eliminate a lot of marketing emails, because marketing emails, if you takein all emails, that number jumps significantly. So we really tried to push it. Team went through and spliced and dice to just get quote unquote,more sales emails. So three hundred sixty two was the average, and thentwenty three seconds average on the voice message across the boarding and a lot ofvoicemails over thirty seconds. But on average it wasn't too bad and we foundbest practice to be a different than that. So under three hundred words is whereyou want to keep those emails and under thirty seconds you want to keepthose voicemails. So that's kind of those five elements and where most of themarket was and then where you should probably be considering you want to be ifyou want to follow more quote unquote best practices excellent, accellent. So II'm curious what was the most surprising thing for you in that particular report thatyou came across? Yeah, I mean, I mean, I don't know.There wasn't too many surprising things. There was a couple moments of likefinally we've got a definition and finally I can say to somebody you know,and I say when I say cades, I kind of know what I'm talkingabout. But I would probably say the voice mail thing was the you know, the fifty two point two percent of people were using voice messages. Thatwas probably because, I mean I just get a lot of people say voicemailsdead, nobody's use a voice while I don't use it. Nobody use it. It's like Whoa wow. I mean more than half of people are usingit on very frequently. Well, everybody still saying cold callings, that topicking up the phones. Yeah, I think the biggest Aha was what we'vekind of hit on with those the perception versus the the actual reality. GetI follow some of these companies who produce surveys of what people say and youknow, what people say are best practice and how people who do social selling, you know, say they sell more and but sometimes I always wondering whatGod is Survey Research. It's based on what people believe, and so tosee that there was such a difference between what people sat on a survey andwhat people are actually doing, it just made me say Yaikes, you knowwe better and and we run surveys as part of our team. So yougot it. You probably just need to take everything something but the great assalt, because that was just it wasn't even close. I mean we're talkingmiles, duration of twenty days. Really it's four and a half days.I mean, wow, that's terrible. Imagine your board sets a target oftwenty percent revenue growth in eighteen months. So something will have to change withyour sales team. How do you beat your target? Value Prime solutions canhelp ensure your managers and reps are leveraging a sales framework that focuses on value, not price. Don't assume you have it all figured out. Don't waituntil it's too late. Visit Value Prime Solutionscom and let them help here andtalk about inside sales. I think I understand how I'm probably wrong. Whatthe labs portion of what you guys business is doing? How it operates thisstuff, but I'd love for autens understand how that kind of plays in themarketing and sales structure. It inside sales in and of itself, right,that innovation, the data constantly improving. I'm curious how you guys are structuredand how where the mission for it came...

...from. Yeah, you know,it's funny. We we so it was part of part of my my thoughtprocess, and from a structural stamp point it does just stand on its own. You know, we read Clayton Christensen's kind of his his concept on disruption. Right, I'm sure you're familiar some what them with Clayton Christensen and youknow he talks about often seeing companies go through this transition where they want tostart focusing on the enterprise. And if you're in the text space and youdon't know the buzz word about, you got to be getting enterprise deals andyou're you're not in the text base when everybody the more profitable enterprise deals.And but he talks about in that dock, you know, in his piece,that is you move to the enterprise, to more profitability, then ankle biders, you know, start to come and they they start to take yoursmb in mid market business and and he said the only way to solve theonly way to not lose that kind of market dominance is to actually set upanother entity outside of its own with almost its full marketing and sales and anotherdepartment to kind of make sure that you stay ahead of the game and youdon't get quote unquote disrupt it. So so truthfully, the executive leaders,you know, we sat down and said, guys, how do we make surethat we stay on top of the game? And so lab sits right. I report right into the executive team, into the founder, and we've gotjust a handful of people. We don't I mean I participate with marketing, I participate with sales, but we have a different office and we runit is a true innovation lab. So we look for the hottest companies andtry to investigate and do those again. We do a research report once amonth. We look at our hundred billion sales interactions and then we run experiments. So I work, we work with our own sales team and with ourcustomers to run actual, quote unquote experiments to see what is working. Sowe talked a little bit about high impact mailers. That's one of the thingsthat's been on our mind lately because it's such a trend that's hitting the spaceand so the problemo time back mailers is not on. Gifts are treated equaland there's actually five levels of I impact malers of people aren't aware of.You can do hand written no cards all the way up to customize gifts,but there's a variety of impact and personalization and cost associated with that. Sowe want to help to find that and to do that we felt like weneed to kind of follow Clayton Christiansen and get a slightly different group. Thatis kind of that quote unqual innovation think team, kind of loud entity andit is so fun. I just I just give you know, dink aroundand and Tak her with different things and check out, kind of stay upon the ladies and I love it. It's been a blast. The innovationside of stuff is always been amazing to me. I spent the last tenyears working with companies on our innovation labs and things of that nature. Soit's nice to see it actually in the sales space. It's not something yousee a lot, right. I mean when we were working with I didsome work with Minnesota Vikings and they were billy getting ready able to big mixeduse new headquarters, training facility, all of this stuff. And Todd Katholishwas the CTO at the time and we started talking about how they were goingto create an innovation lab because, interestingly enough, they're a football team.Now, once you see me you would think, wow, you should bea football guy. I'm totally not a football guy, but but I'm asbig as todd, right six to two hundred and sixty pounds, and toddand I we're talking and he's like look, here's our goal. Is Not tobe the best football team in the NFL. Our goal is to bea business that happens to own a football team and in order to do thatthey we're going to have some pretty serious cultural changes that to do so westarted talking about innovation labs. Setting them up outside totally makes sense. I'mcurious how you guys actually take those learnings and roll them back into the operationsof inside sales. Are you these are some formalized process that you do there, or is it just kind of more, you know, organic? Yeah,you know, we actually created a new I appreciate you. See youdon't see it in sales very often because I feel like when I'm I'm theguy in the room and I say I'm like from insight sales labs. Youknow, like I said, I get...

...these these these kind of dirty jokesthings. You know, it's like yeah, I mean I've seriously heard it athousand times, but so nobody gets it. You know, if Isay I'm part of marketing and I'm part of like content, they're like,oh, yeah, I get it, but it's not it's not really thatbecause again, it's got these multiple prongs. But one of the main ideas thatwe've kind of reincorporated is we do believe that the the world of salesin a lot of cases is over specialized and you've got into this siload approachwhere, you know, we went so specialized with with, you know,lead reacher researchers and sales flop and reps and s andb reps men market repsand enterprise reps and film reps and sales operating. You know, it's likewow, okay, we got really specialized created a lot of silos. Sowe've brought it back in house and created what we called growth team, andthat growth team is more centralized. So it's more focused around a you know, think of it like a more segmentation where marketing, a sales, acustomer s success and an innovation or a laps person all report into one individualand we look at it more like that. And so in a product person fitsinto that EXCEP. So this growth team is is a slightly different structureand with one of my team participating in that, we look at think ofit like we look at mid market more holistically. You know, not howsales runs and how marketing runs, but it's how the growth team runs andthe growth team overseas. All of our quote unquote, me a bit marketbusiness, for example. So I'd probably say that's the biggest difference is Ido a weekly operations meeting and then a monthly governance meeting and I've got allmy peers across the different entities and so more so than every the communication justflows because all my learnings my product team. I was just on this this meetingthis morning with my product team because I had done a podcast with avery hot company and so I brought it up in the meeting and they saidwe're thinking about integrating that. So we jumped on and that will potentially bean integration partner. So I lead out on that and bring it to theproduct. So but it fits into this growth model of a weekly operations andthen a monthly governance meeting with all kind of the heads of statement. It'sbeen very effective as ours communications. It's a fascinating approach to me, right, because, I said, you don't see it a lot in sales,right, but that concept of innovation, I see a lot of companies havea tendency to want to bring it outside expertise, right, and that's andthat's great. I mean I get that. I just that. Just spoke tothe Sea of the AOPA who used to work at Harley and he's allabout bringing everything in house. Right, you want to have everything in house. But on sales, is it just that we're too skeptical? I mean, I what is it about says people that that when you know you said, you get those jokes when you walk into the room and a minute youbring up innovation, their eyes kind of roll back in their head, right, and you've got to worry, you got to call one one or something. I'm just kind of curious. Why do you think that is? Idon't know. We're still yeah, I mean having done it now for I'veonly done it for a year, you know, or a couple different anstateinside sales. But the truth of it is we're still going through kind ofthat crossing the chasm motion of of subjective, gut driven filled sales where it waskind of like hey, let's go on the golf course, smoke stogiesand shake hand, you know, kind of that model, to this modelthat I think people see but they just can't really grasp it, because Aiand data is is a buzz word, but they've not seen it. They'veseen it in Netflix, they've seen it in Google maps, but they've notseen it in the work. We did a big AI study and people arethinking about it, but they're not grasping it. And so we're preaching insales a new world, a new opportunity. That says truly think, iron man, that you are encapsulated, you still drive it. I don't,I won't ever believe that sales will be replaced by machines, but I dosee very much it's happening in small areas, the iron man approach where I've gota sister done and I become a super sales person. And so you'rejust getting, and I don't mean to knock the you know, a generation, you know potentially a little older,...

...but is we move and more millennialsleadership, I better be careful of the leadership. I think you'll see moreof an acceptance because it's going there. But what we are saying is thatthe old way of doing sales subjectively isn't going to work and we're preaching alabs and experimentation. I mean, Ay, be split testing for sales. IfI say that in a room of sales people they say what the Hell, and I'm saying, what the Hell Are you doing right? You gotto be running your own experiments and if you're not, use a data andyou're not being having technology and able you. So I mean to meet Jaid that. That's it. It's the old way versus the new way and you'reseeing kind of this this change of the guard here. So it's interesting tome the the you know, adoption of technology or lack of adoption of technologyfrom some sales refs. I like that iron man analogy. I'll probably stealthat too, but I'll give you credit for it, but I'll probably stilldon't. It's a good movie. But one of the things you said aboutyou know, you've seen too much specialization. You guys have kind of identified thisand I've spent a lot of time talking to clients about okay, well, I got my str team that does this and I got my BDR teamthat does this and I got my account managers, my count refs in largescale organizations. Why do you think that is the that's kind of become thede facto, is it? I originally thought it was because they needed acareer path for guys that got out of school they didn't have sales experience.Will will put them in an str role, make them smile and dial and andburn it up. But I'm curious if maybe you think there's another reasonwhy they tried to go down that path, because to me it seems very segmentedand a lot of handoff points. As you if you have an strwho gets a meeting and then you have to hand it off to somebody elseto qualify and somebody else to actually you're breaking the chain of that relationship andI think as more people are focused on that total sales experience, experiences thatthey're having that gets dangerous and I'm kind of curious what you think. Whythe specialization happen in the first place and how how do they go back toan iron man approach? Yeah, yeah, I mean I think you just sawagain you've got to watch the spectrum kind of go back and forth.So I think we started again as this generalist model. I mean, youknow, you've got these kind of filled sales reps and they were just doingbasically everything and that was, you know, a lot of people want to saythat was a hundred years ago, but I think it was more liketwenty, twenty thirty. So, but you saw that true generalist model andI think when we started to see the advantage of this specialized model, Ithink we want the other way and I think sales it's certainly in the textbased sales force let out on that right. They just said, oh my goodness, we can go they just specialized everything. Talk. You know,we hired a lot of sales force leaders inside sales and without naming names,certainly, one of the things most of them would tell you is that theyhave they actually identified that one of the things they've gone too far on was, you know, potentially specially created too many sidelows and it again. Thisis may be more based on their opinion than date. I'm not sure.But so I think what you're finding now is just just a course car anatural correction. We were too far one way. Now we've gone too faranother way. Now we're trying to find this generalized specialist model. Is kindof what we've been referring to it, as you know. I mean youstill want to have some of that in there, but you've got to finda way to kind of have people know about more things around them so thatyou can find this ballance. I won't go to the place to say wegot to go back, but we've got to find a way to merge thetwo, two extremes together a little bit. Yeah, a little bit more towardsthem met all. I mean that again, that iron man, analogyman and technology enables so much, but at the heart of it you're stillyou still have to find a way to get to that human connection. Right. Well, they had people. Yeah, the thing, the iron man thing. I think you're going to see that come on really interesting because partof the problem we've run into is,...

...you know, crm in general.Right, a lot of study shown that crm used to just going down.Why? Because it's not really enabling. You know, we're giving, we'renot getting. The problem is you got all these technologies being built on crmthat are giving, but they're they're also sigload that that they're not written.In a lot of cases they're actually decreasing sales productivity. All of them saytheir sales accelerators. I know they're actually sales decelerators and a lot of instancesand we probably need to get off the air us. But Anyway, Ithink you're going to see a big trend more to the individual right. ThinkSports Science, where a sales wrapped it. You know, a Lebron James cango about as work week is. You know, he can go intoa game and he's got sensors on them and we're still tracking all his shotin his velocity and is modeling, but all that stuff can be fed backto him almost real time. There's a basketball now that exists that has datasensors on it that can real time tell you if you're you know, yourshot process and form is correct. That's the kind of play that's the ironman. Right now we're too focus on the systems it's the shiny object crmand sales acceleration technology. We got to get back to the individual and enablethem and do it in a way that's not disruptive, because right now,I'm telling you, go ask how many sales reps love you is crm.You can big fat zero. I generalize. I'm being a little decetious, butI know you're right. Empower the individual rather than focus so much onthese. I mean we talked about it automating emails, and it's like,come on, iron man Jarvis the suit it supports versus. I don't knowyou know this, it's just it. We got to get more iron menand I think you'll see that. I think you'll see. Yeah, I'venever met and when I was an individual contributor back in the day and whenI ran teams and built them, I've never seen a sales wrap willingly adopta technology that got in their way, right, that made it harder forthem to sell. I if I had a dollar for every time I saidHey, have you updated your sales force forecast, I would be living ona beach somewhere right. So No, look at a lot of the toolsand insights it. You know, I think we fell into some of thattrap to I mean, I won't say we're perfect, but we did abig study where we went back to the users and said, you know,is our tool getting in your way? And truthfully, we had some strongfeedback. So we you know, in the last two years we released afull different suite of tools. It's a chrome extension that follows the Repin youknow, I don't want to say where the the beaming icon or something,but God, we've got to get we've all got to make a concerted effortbecause I know, I mean I'm on the road all the time and youtalk to Reps. it's not just sales force. A lot of these toolsare like yeah, it actually disrupts, you know, rather than support.So we we got to find a way to just work. If you're amillennial, especially, you got to work in my day. I'm not right, I'm not going. You got to work with me, right, it'llbe interesting, man. Yeah, we could talk about this for hours ssort again, I want to be respectfully your time. I do appreciate sotwo questions towards the end. We get you know, at the end ofthe day you are as an executive your your target. That means people wantto sell. Do you you're a prospect? Sorry, targets, probably a littleto it present. No, no, not, I'm I don't have Tomfor to shoot me up. Mission impossible sound? No, but thereare people out there that want to you know, that want to spend time. You See, if you've got problems, I can solve. So on andso far, and I'm curious if you're in a very unique position.But I'm very curious when somebody approaches you and they and you don't know them, there's not a warm intro or whatever, what's the most effective way to getyour attention? What do you find yourself responding to? Is it thevoicemails, emails? What seems to work to get your attention and build credibility? Yeah, and well, this is almost across the board and I've gotsome good data to back it up. But it is just value as valuefor value. You have to now approach people and give them something. Imean, if you can get if you would approach me and say hey,I all introduce you to a really cool company, a podcast guest. Allyou know, I've got some research that...

I want to share with you andI'll tailor it to your organization. You you give me value. I don'tcare the channel. I actually do look at every single email that comes in. I got a hundred sixty two emails yesterday. I do look every night. I do go through every single email and if there's something and I've hadpeople do it, I saw your podcast. Here's a great guess. I thinkI'd recommend to you. Wow, I listen to that value and Ijust highlighted three, you know, introduced it. Or give me a podcastis or show me some research, and I'm not talking about research, I'mtalking about research relevant to me right now, to tach or. You know,if on telecom that kind of value, I will give you value back.But it's now partnership is the new leadership, right. So you knowyou've got to you want to be a leader, you want to be aleader sales, you want to lead your team, you want to be aleader in your organization. You got to find more partnerships. And so peoplethink I started the podcast, you know, they're like, Oh, you musthave wanted to be, you know, some sort of thought leader, andI'm like now it's just actually trying to sales. You know, youknow how effective it is to reach out to somebody and say I got tenzerolisteners a month on my podcast. You want to be on? You wantto be on the PODCAST. Oh, by the way, we sell technology. That's kick. But so, I mean, but I gave them valueand in turn, I deserve to have a I've earned the right. Ipaid the price. So I do believe partnership is the new leadership. Excellent, excellent. All right. Last question. We call it our acceleration insight.So if you can think of one thing that you could tell sales ormarketing professionals that you think would make them more effective, hit their targets,you know, achieve those big checks in those goals, what would it be? And why? Yeah, man, it's I mean we use this asour motto, right. I've kind of adopted this concept playmakers, and Isay, you know, success is just one play away, and what thatmeans is it's you know, when you think about sales, I love thisconcept of you know, I'm I'm I'm a little bit of an ex athlete. I got to be careful with that, because what I mean by that isI'm an x high school lackfully, it's not college. It was highschool, but I was good man. I got all state, I gotall state bells and whistles on my walls. I'd see a little bit, butit all series this. I got a little bit of a sports background, the concept of plays and play books. You know, sales is got tostop shooting from the HIP. You know, when you attack an enemy, when you attack an opponent, they come at you with this, yousure as how better have a play. And so I love to see whenpeople run a strategic outreach initiative that thinks about what's my strategy and my targetaudience and what do I have to offer, how I give value to get it? What's my cagings and what am my results and what systems can Iutilize? Then we actually run an outreach player campaign. That's the thing thatI'm seeing is making the biggest difference in sales. When you think strategically abouthow you want to get somebody and you run a play rather than shoot fromthe hip, makes all the difference. Excellent, accellent. I really appreciatethe time today. If somebody wants to get copies of the latest studies frominside Sales Laves, what's the best place to go. Yeah, you wantto go to you know? Certainly you know check me out if you everwant to have a conversation. You got me on Linkedin. It's just gableours on Linkedin, but hit the sales insider blog and you'll get the exactsummary. If you want to go deeper, you can go to labs dot insidesalescom and that's where we highlight our our experiments and some of our research. So between the sales inside or blog and labs do inside sales ocom,we find some stuff excellent and and best way to get a hold of youlinkedin or email, it sounds like. As long as they're providing value,you're open to any channel. Yeah, you know I'm usually open to chat, but that that is the key. If you come at me with arelevant question or something that's intriguing, I'm always happy to have the conversation andI love the play. Truthfully, just hey, I wanted to ask youa question. I wanted to you know...

...you approach me as a someone you'retrying to learn from. I'm always happy to teach, but don't think youcan take without giving right excellent acts. All again, I can't thank youenough for the time today. It's been great having you on the show.Appreciate it, my man, and any time I expect the return visit aswell. So should you got it? You gotta all right, everybody thatdoes it for today's episode. If you haven't, please check out games podcastplaymaker. I cannot recommend it high enough. It is a phenomenal listen. Ithelps me get through the damn elliptical every morning. It's it's fun tolisten to. Check us out at BB REV exactcom. Share the episode withfriends, Families Co workers. If you like what's here, please leave usa review. We do use those reviews to determine what guests to bring onfor you. But until next time, we have value prime solutions with youand all nothing but the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenueexecutive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to theshow and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening.Until next time,.

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