The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 4 years ago

Gabe Larsen on The 5 Key Components of a Cadence

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

A lot of people are fascinated by genetic structure. This is true whether that’s literal genetic material like the human genome or more metaphorical like the DNA of a sales process.

Breaking things down to their lowest level gives us a better idea of both what we’re working with and how to get the most out of it. Seeing how things function is useful for many industries, and sales is no exception.

It’s one thing to initiate a process like a sales cadence. It’s quite another to understand why you’re initiating it and how the moving parts of that sales cadence actually operate. The former is pretty hit-or-miss, while the latter gives you control over your process.

In this episode, Gabe Larsen, VP of Sales for InsideSales Labs, talks about the research his team has been doing to crack the genetic code of sales cadences.

Find a breakdown of this episode here.

Today, on the btob revenue executiveexperience, we're going to be speaking with Gay Larson VP of inside sales,labs and host of the playmaker podcast about sales cadences. What are they howthey should be structured for optimal effectiveness and, of course, why mostpeople are getting them wrong will also spend some time talking about sales,innovation and how inside sales had set up the labs program to say at theforefront of sales evolution, Yo're listening to the BTB revenueexecutive experience, a podcast, dedicated ELP executives, train theirsales and marketing teams to optimize growth, whether you're looking fortechniques and strategies, wor tools and resources. You've come to the rightplace. Let's accelerate your growth in three to one kape. Thank you very much fortaking the time and welcome to the show Oman. I'm excited, I love the topic andI'm excited to be with you guys, I'm a fan, and I love talking sale Ye. It's abread and butter. So, of course we're excited to talk about it, but before wejump in first question, Andi'll be regdt up Ron. I stole this from you offof the playmaker. Ask a question: It's a little off track, but let's talkabout at thefinding moment in your life or career that kind of changed todirectory for you, whereas a lesson you learn that you keep coming back to whatwas it and what lessdod you take away from it yeah. You know it's comfort, Oman, Clyn was it maybe seven years ago, sixyears ago I took a took a role in Jedi, Saudi Arabia, of all places. You know Iwas the only employee. They wanted me to start an office out there and mywife just said what the Heller I and I didn't know if I should be doingit, but it was game changing not only to get the internationalexperience. I got TA set up the office, I ended up working on a on the Toyotaaccount it led to multiple promotions. I came back to the states, but you knowone decision of giving out of your comfort zone. I think, can make all the differenceand you tie that back to sales. It's just every day. I would challengesomebody make do one thing that pushes you out of your comforts, op post, anarticle on Linkin. If you've never done it, you know, do a cold call and don'teven do any research and see if you o something crazy to gos ar crazy. But you know dosomething that pushes you, because I'm telling MOU it'll pay dividends in theend axcellent and we see a lot of Salls rups get stuck in there in their rutsright and so I'm curious. Let's talk about cadences, let's start with adefinition, because I were hearing it a lot right. We hear a lot of people talkabout it. I throw it around. I'm curious how you know if you I look atinside sales and what you guys are doing is one of the leaders in this,and so how do you guys define cadences yeah? Well, that was the problem right.I mean th W I'm sitting back here and and it's part of my job right. We tcalled inside Zales labs. A lot of people are saying: You know if you gotwhite coats, you got labasistem set some rats in there to s all funny, butnone true. I mean it's our research and best practice, so I'm the guy who getsto go to the clients and steal their secrets and bring them back, and we doa research report. You know once a month ad ad, a blast doing it, but wetook a step back and all this buzz around outreach strategies or salescadens and and we started pushing buttons on people I mean justeveryone's. I mean no and everyone kind of looked at it slightly different.Although there was a lot of overlack. So we took a step back and said what,if we didn't, do a survey, what if we actually went into our data pot ofDatand, nowit insiht sales? We have what we call this neurolytics data, bigdata set. We got a hundred billion sales interactions and my team plays inat daily I wer a ve, weird visual of playing in the date of Aenit Ri LongStory Short. We just picked and said: Won't we look at about nineouzandcompanies a well look at fourteen thousand cadances and we'll see if we can basically breakthe DNA of a caden up, but also comes with definition, and I got to tell youwe went through. Probably I don't know...

...fifty durations of a definition. I knowthat's a little bit long thet. Our definition is a sequence of activitiesto increase contact and qualification and O. I know it sounds simple.Hopefully it sounds simple. I could probably spend twenty minutes and I'lljust spend thirty seconds, but a guys Akans is a sequence of activity toincrease contect and qualification, as sequence means it's data driven, it'snot something we just wint, but when it comes to sequence of activities,there's actually six activities that can be included in the caves. It's notjust bone and social, it's phone and tax message and voicemelln email andsocial and high impact malers high impact malers coming online veryquickly. Now a lot of people say: Canes is just about contact rates, but if youdo it right, you can also educate your buyer. Thus, the idea of increasingboth contact and qualification- I now long answered ched, but somethere wassome thought behind that I will not mean. I Si excellent me because we dowe see it. I mean in actually see that term getting used in AI. Is it outhowreached out io? I think calls what what they put together as cadencis there's alot of confusion so clearing that up as a kind of a basspoint, I think, is agreat starting point. But when you you know, if you, if you take all thosethings that you mentioned, is it something that a sales rep is anindividual can do or is it something that should be more organizational atthe organizational level in terms of thise development of the cadences yeah?You know, I'm believe we are seeing this evolution of sales where andthatsal this idea of kind ofplaymaker, where you're almost the CEO of your own territor. I do believe inthe future you're going to see more sales raps, even sales development,reps, managing potentially like facebook ads band. You know certainlysending mailors or door openers. I mean there is this idea that you've got toown it, because you know whether you like it or not, it's your territory. SoI a lot of the organizations want to mandate this, but truthfully sales reps,they do it and they need to know how to own it. Well, do you see that I meancadences to I think, at least for me. I know myself. Thankyou, a psychotherapist a little bit, probably better than most people outthere, but a lot of the caneses that I run also takin. To account me as a personlike mylike my personality, would I bring to Tay Books? I don't want anypart of that CAS whether be a maler or the messaging in an article that goesout or something like that to create this false impression, and then you geton the phone you're like wait, a minute er her a found Mouth Harley riding guylike wait. That's not what I thought I was getting right. So do those cadenceshave to be: Are they better and more powerful ifthey're more personalized to the person actually executing them? Yeah, I meanone line for you: personalization, always trumps automation. I mean this.Is the scary world were living in where lookmy my company sells? Some ofthese toobll Si a little bit care or myself, but youknow Hese these reps. we want to become email, marketers, and so we puttogether these canns pams. You know email templates and they send out onperiodic dates and they're, just generic templates and there's a placefor it. Don't get me wrong, but there's a balance of personalization andautomation. If you're not careful, they say the average that a person isgetting a hundred and twenty one emails, a data you got to stand out andpersonalization should always tramp automation, yeah without a thepersonalization, and it takes the thing I love hearing is well, but it takestime, Woll yeah it sales all right. If you're doing the job it takes time todo it and to do it right, especially to capture attention to people that youdon't know Heya, they mender that so, okay, so let's see you guys justpublished a recent study. Wediyou mentioned doing a monthly, but you guysidentified five key components of a cadence and I'm wondering if you couldhelp our audience understand those and how you guys settled on those five yeahyea, so that was kind of the part two of th the study right. So again welooked at about Nineosano companies and...

...actually you'll see we. Actually welooked at the fortune. One hundred we didn't get Oul fortune five hundred,but we wanted to see what some of the best in class are doing and so part. Two of the study that's comingout. First ing next week is just what the cadences of the fortune one hundredwere, but the lawng short. We looked at nine thousand companies, and that wasabout agating fourteen ouzand audits and the definition was just tightening.The definition was one of our objectives, but the other, as I said,was really kind of coming up with what we say is that the elements of a canesfor the DNA of a canes, because oftentimes people say I got a Cadon, soI you know, I tempt them ten times an Tha. ' That's Itntuthuljat, I'm like Idon't know I mean. Maybe that is a case. Maybe it's just you know, hittingpeople with a couple different activities, but when we hade the team-and we got a handful of researchers when they were try to splice and dice,it figure out what is a casense, the just these five pillars emerged andthey've become kind of the foundation for how we help companies build andstart thinking about it Catan. So those five pillars are attempts. Just what wetalk about. That's going to be the Tele bocal number of touches. Then you'vegot this concept of media methods use and that is the media pattern used likephone voice, mal, email, social, some of the different things and how you fitthose together thet he have duration. That's just going to be the firstactivity to the last activity know how long do Yo actually do this thing, then you have spacing some people ar like this is prettydetailed, but if we're talking about making money it should be detailedright right facing and that's just the average time gap between differentattempts. So I call on day one and then I email a I call again on day three ordo I do day too. I mean that's a big, you know it's pretty different and thenthe last piece of probably the x factor was content, and that was we analyzedthousands and thousands of emails and thousands and thousands of voicemessages to understand. Okay. What is the content BC? Av Attempts, mediaduration spacing and content, and we really believe, if you're serious,about building a cadence. These are the five elements you're going to want toat least be thinking about the optimize, because we found that ther'r badpractices and there's good practiceis when it comes to these five elements.Okay, so let's want to be respect ful, O Time I ud love to dive into each ofthem, but I'm curious with with attempts, and then I maybe this is alittle preview of what's coming out in the next report, but what's yourresearch shown to be the OPTABAL amount of attempts? Well, this was theinteresting I mean Guyas. You know you could talk about it for a long time,but I'll try to make it short that when it came to it tempts there was a realinteresting thing that happened. I looked and I won't name names, butthere was a study done by a company and they asked how many attempts do you doon your typical lead. The number came out to be fifteen point five, and so Iassumed that you know that's what people saythey do that's what actually they do well, we found that it was quite a bitunder what people think they do. The average number of attempts perindividual or per contactorly is four point. Oh five, now that's one point.Seven three phone calls and two point three two emails. So people are doingabout four, but they believe they're doing about three times, which is fine now. The interestingthing is, though I will say- and this is kind of this interesting bias-that's going on when we ran the numbers to figure out best practice bestpractice, as it should be in the rage of ten to fifteen, so interesting that people think they'redoing about fifteen they're really doing for, but the data says theyshouldn be doing about fifte, so kind of a weird ima going on there withactual data. Again, this is not Tis, not theory or survey. This is actualbehavioral. Data of you know real people doing real phone calls, etc, etc.Well and it's interesting right people I think, delude themselves, a lot andin terms of what they're doing they'll tell you they're doing fifteen, becausehey don't want to have to pick up the phone they don't want to have to draftanother email right well I's. I know...

...the thing is when I like things onsocial. I like it like that I keep liking of that that that's every time Ido that at counsfor two, and so I can see how they got to the got got to thenumber fifteen sometime. So interesting, okay, so what about media is theur bestpractice combination of texht social email phone calls that you guysuncovered yeah. So the MOT, the the typical was actually most people just leedingwith emails. You saw from the attempts you're almost doing double the numberof emails that you are compared to phone calls. So is you think aboutmedia most people led with a very heavy email based cavece and that's kind ofwhat we talke about before it's easier and simpler. I don't have topersonalize. I can just kind of plug it into these tools and just run away withit. We found best practice to actually be that call voicemale email approach.Now, there's a little bit of Art Anto how you design that, because again, ifI'm doing a callboys, mall email and I'm doing ten to fifteen touches, Icertainly will talk about cration 's facing t how that works. But do I do itcall first and email first of voicemelt. First there's some intricacies therethat where there's a little bit of art sience and is it is there, do you seelike do people actually return voice? Males have you seen? I mean I've alwaysused it more of a a hey, I'm gonna, I'm so, and so you know fifteen seconds andI'm going to follow up with an email not expecting them to actually dial meback, but did you did you see that to be true or did see other things in theresearch yeah? You know truthfully. We found a couple things on voicema number.One IIS often best cared mean you're goingto get better results. When I say better results, I mean responses aswell as potentially additional contact or conversations if you pair it with anemail so kind of what you were you were just talking about, but one of thethings we did want to figure out is you know his kind of like the voice, male dead concept, and we found twointeresting things. Just Rork Cook on Voys Bell Number One. Forty two point:eight percent of voice mals were over thirty seconds, so a lot of peopleleaving fairly long voice messages. In that you know, without metting, into alot of detail, that's bad! You want to be with voicemail. You got to keep itpretty close to the the eighteen to thirty second Max Ma kind of number,but we still ityou know without Agng Gettin. In a lot of detail, a lot ofpeople still using voice messages. Almost fifty percent of cadences had avoice message, so a lot of people saying it's dead or it's not being utilized, but but certainly thatwouldn't be what we've seen again from kind of this general general marketstudy. Now that does change. In fact, the actual number fifty twopoint- two percent of phone calls had a voice message. Is We lookd to differentactivities so a lot of voice messages being utilized kind of across the board?Excellent? And so? Okay? So now lit's, like a duration, so you've got. Youknow you Gotto, ten fifteen touches what kind of time frame you spread thatover for optimal results, yeah, so the duration? A again. This was anotherinteresting one where, when we looked at some of the industry data, most people said yeah, you know myaverage duration of my occadances is twenty days. I mean I typically space.My you know about fifteen touches over twenty days. Well, people again thinkwe're kind of treating themselves. We found to have experation to be at fourpoint, eight nine days so just kind of a full business week. If you will soagain about four times, you know quite a bit less than the twenty that theythought that they did very similar to the attempts, though best practice putit more in that fourteen to twenty one range. So exactly like it, temps peoplebelieve they're doing something. They're not, but they should be excellent and then spacing yeah. It'skind of final it up here so spacing optimal, as in that one to three range,you want to keep it a little bit shorter, there's something that we seein the Dato, the psycho, this psychoc a psychology of immediacy. You know ifwe think about cadens of educating somebody. You run into a problem. Ifyou say I touch hit one week and then I'll touch him for another. Two weeks Imean to. I can't remember what I did...

...yesterday Rghso because of this top ofmind, awareness and an educational aspect of cades. You want to typicallyyou run a cadence again for a couple weeks and try to keep those touchesfairly close to each other a couple days between and then you stop it and then you again,you can recycle it. Maybe a month or two later, O run another Canee, butthese people and I looking at the data right now. We we het some people who hsent. You know one email, one week, three weeks, two weeks later, anotheremail, then a phone call. Two days later, it's like Whoa what the like this guys, just shooting from the hip.Here I assume it's a guy weird things like that. So anyways,that's te spacing and then last a 'll just finish, lop on the content averageprospecting email was sitting at three hundred and sixty two words. Now thatseems like a lot, but again you've got a lot of marketing help in there. Nowwe really did take a lot of effort to eliminate a lot of marketing emails,bgause marketing emails. If you take in all email that number jumpsignificantly, so we really tried to push it. Team went through and splicedand dice to just get quote unquote more sales email. So three hundred sixty twois the average and then twenty three seconds average on the voice messageacross the board again a lot of voicemails over thirty seconds, but onaverage it wasn't too bad and we found best practice to be a different thanthat. So under three hundred bords is where you want to keep those emails,and under thirty seconds you want to keep those voice inout. So that's kindof those five elements and where most of the market was and then where youshould probably be considering you want to be. If you want to follow more quote,Unquote Best Practices, excellent excellent. So I'm curious. What was themost surprising thing for you in that particular report that you came acrossyeah I mean the I mean the I don't know there wasn't too many surprising things.There was a couple moments of like how finally we've got a definition to.Finally I can say to somebody you know I say when I say Cadensi, I kind ofknow what I'm talking about, but I would probably say the voice. Mallthing was the you know that fifty two point twopercent of people are using voice messages. That was probably because Imean I just get a lot of people saying voice mells dead, nobody's using voiceAbelt, I don't use it, nobody use it. It's like Whoa Wow, I mean more thanhalf of people are using it on ver very frequently. Well, everybody stillsaying cold, calling stead to picking up the phones Tyeah. I think the biggest a a what we've kindof hit on withthose the perception versus the the actual reality an Ifollow some of these companies who produce surveys of what people say, andyou know what people say our best practice and how people Ho do socialselling, you know say they sell more and but sometimes I always wonder, likeGod, disturb Ey researches, they saw people believe and so to see that therewas such a difference between what people said on a survey and what peopleare actually doing it just made me say: Yeahia know we better and, and we runsurveys as part of our team, you got it. You probably just need to takeeverything, Som Tike with the hack of the Great Afsault, because that wasjust it wasn't. Even close, I mean we're talking miles. Duration of twentydays. Really it's four and a half days. I mean wow that that's terrible. Imagine your board sets a target oftwenty percent revenue growth in eighteen months, so something will haveto change with your sales team. How do you be your target value? Primesolutions can help ensure your managers and reps are leveraging a salesframework that focuses on value, not price, don't assume you have it allfigured out, don't wait until it's too late visit value, Prime Solutionscom,and let them help B here and talk about inside sales. I think I understand, although I'mprobably wrong what the labs portion of what your guys business is doing, howit operates. USSELF, bread, love for audience, understand how that kind ofplays in the marketing and sale structure at inside sales, in n ofitself right that innovation. The data constantly improving, I'm curious, howyou guys are structured and where the...

...mission for it came from yeah. You knowit's funny we so it was part of part of my my thought process and from astructural standpoint. It does just stand on its own. You know we readClayton Christhenson's kind of his is concept on disruption,right, I'm sure you're familiar, I'm lote him with Laken Christienson, andyou know he talks about often seeing companies go through this transitionwhere they want to start focusing on the enterprise and, if you're in thetext pace- and you don't know the buzz word about- you got to be gettingenterprise deals and Yoyou're, not at the text pace when everyon a a moreprofitable enterprise deals, and but he talks about in that Doke. Youknow in his peace that, as you move to the enterprise to more profiabilitythan Akle biters, you know start to comely. They start to take your smbn anmid park at business and, and he said the only way to solve theonly way to not lose that kind of market dominance is to actually set upanother entity outside of its own, with almost its full marketing in sales.Another department to kind of make sure that you stay ahead of the game and youdon't get quote unquote disrupted. So so truthfully, the executive leadersip.You know we sat down and said guys. How do we make sure that we stay on top ofthe game and so blabs its right? I report right into the executive teaminto the founder and we've got just a handful of people. We don't I mean Iparticipate with Marketingi participate with sales, but we have a differentoffice and can we run it as a true innovationlap? So we look for the hottest companies andtry to investigate and do those again we do a research report once a month.We look at our hundred billion sales interaction and then we run experiment.So I work w. We work with our own sales team and with our customers to runactual quoteunquote experiments to see what is working. So we talked a littlebit about high impact malers. That's one of the things that's been on ourmind lately, because it's such a trend, that's hitting the space, and so the problem with imback malers is noton. Gifts are treated equal and there's. Actually, five levels of Hig impact,mailers of people aren't aware of. You can do handwritten note cards all theway up to customize gifts, but there's a variety of impact and personalizationand cost associated with that. So we want to help to find that and to dothat, we felt like we needed to kind of follow playing Christienson and get aslightly different group that is kind of that quatical innovation, thintankind of loub entity, and it is so fun I jut I jus G, you know dink around and tanker, with different things and checkout and kind of stay up on the LADES, and I love it. It is been a blast andthe innovation side of stuff has always been amazing to me, as spent the lastten years working with companies on our innovation, labs and things of thatnature. So it's nice to see it actually in the sales space. It's not something!You see a lot right, I mean when we were working with. I did some work withMinnesota Vikings and they were bill getting readabl the big mix to use newheadquarters training facility. All of this stuff and tod cathlish was the CTOat the time and we started talking about how they were going to create aninnovation lab. Because, interestingly enough, is there a football team? Now,once you see me, you would think wow. You should be a football guy, I'mtotally not a football guy, but but I'm as big as tied right six, two twohundred nd sixty pounds and toddnd. I were talking and he's like look he's.Our goal is not to be the best football team in the NFL. Our goal is to be abusiness that happens to own a football team and in order to do that, they weregoing to have some pretty serious cultural changes that to do so, westarted talk about innovation. Labs setting them up outside totally makessense. I'm curious how you guys actually take those learnings and rollthem back into the operations of inside sales. Ov You tese are some formalizedprocess that you do there or is it it's kind of more? You know, Morganic Yeah.You know we actually created a new. I appreciate Ou Sind, you don't seeithin sales. Very often because I feel like when I'm I'm the guy in the room-and I say I'm like from inside sale labs- you know, like I said I get thesethese, these kind of dirty jokes,...

...it's like yeah, I mean I seiously earnda thousand times, but so nobody gets it. You know, if I say, I'm part ofmarketing and I'm part of like content they're like Oh yeah yeah. I get it,but it's not it's not really that, because again, it's got these multiplePROMS, but one of the main ideas that we've kind of reincorporated is. We dobelieve that the world of sales in a lot of cases is overspecialized andyou've got into this siload approach. Where you know we went so specializedwith with Theyou, know: Leag Reachor, re researchers and Salesvelpam reps andSNB reps man, markreps and enterpise reps, and film reps and sales op forand Yo knowe like wow, okay, we got a really specialized created a lot ofsilents, so we brought it back in house and created what we call a growth teamand that girls team is more centralized. So is more focused around a you know, think of it like a moresegmentation where marketing a sales, a customer success and an innovation orlabse person all report into one individual, and we look at it more like that and so,and a product person fits into that Etcera. So this growth team is is a slightly different structure andwith one of my team participating in that we look at think of it. Like we look at mid marketmore holistically, you know not how sales runs and how marketing runs, butit's how the growth team runs and the Gros im oversees all of our quat comunomid market business, for example. So I'd probably say that's the biggestdifference is I do a weekly operations meeting and then a monthly governancemeeting and I've got all my peers across the different entities and so more so than ever. The communicationjust flows because all my learnings, my product team. I was just on this thismeeting this morning with my product team, because I had done a podcast witha very hot company, and so I brought it up in the meeting and they said we'rethinking about integrating that so we jumped on and that'll potentiallyb anintegration partner, so I lead out on that and bring it to the product so,but it fits into this growth model of a weekly operations and then a monthlygovernance meeting with all kind of the heads of statement, it's been veryeffective as far as communication. It's a fascinating approach to me rightbecause I said you don't see it a lot in sales right, but that concept ofinnovation. I see a lot of companies. I have a tendency to want to bring inoutside expertise right and that's- and that's great I mean I get that I just Ijust spoke to the CMO of the AOPA who used to work at Harley and he's allabout bringing everything in the house right. He wants to have everything inhouse put on sales. Is it just that we're too skeptical? I mean I. What isit about sens people that that when you know you said you get those jokes whenyou walk into the room and the minute ye bring up innovation, their eyes kindof roll back in their head right and you got ta worry if o got Ta Call NineHunde one or something I'm just kind of curious y? Why do you think that isyeah? I don't know we're still yeah I mean haven't done it now, for I've onlydone it for a year. You know I've bore n a couple different Hascerin sidesales, but the truth of it is we're still going through kind of that crossing the casm motion of of subjective got driven field saleswhere it was kind of like hey. Let's go on the golf course smoke stogies andshake hand. You know kind of that model to this model that I think people see,but they just can't really grasp it, because AI and Datais is a buzz word,but they've not seen it they've seen it in that Flix they've seen it in Googlemass, but they've not seen it in the work. We did a big AI study and peopleare thinking about it, but they're not grasping it and so we're preaching insales a new world, a new opportunity that says truly think iron man, butthat you are encapsulated. You still drive it. I don't we. I won't everbelieve that sales will be replaced by machines, but I do see very much hat'shappening in small areas. The Iron Man Approach, where I've got a system and Ibecome a super sales person and so you're just geting I, and en I don'tmean to knot the you know a generation,...

...you know potentially a little older,but is we move and weget more millennials Erh? I better be careful the leaderhip, I think, you'll see moreof an acceptance because it's going there, but what we are saying is thatthe old way of doing sales, subjectively isn't going to work andwwe're preaching a labs and experimentation. I mean AB splittesting for sales. If I say that in a rom of sales people, they say what theHapand I'm saying, what the Hell Are you doing? Yeah, you gotto be runningyour own experiments and, if you're not using dat and you're, not being havingtechnology and able you D, so I mean to me that that's it, it's the old wayversus the new way and you're. Seeing kind of this, this change of the guardhere, yea, it's interesting to me, the the you know, adoption of technology orlack of adoption of technology from some sales repts. I like that iron man,analogy I'll, probably steal that too, but I'll give you credit for it, butI'll probably stil t it, but one of the things you saidabout you know you've seen too much specialization. You guys he kind ofidentified this and I've spent a lot of time talking to clients, bout, okay.Well, I got my SDR team that does this and I got my BDR team tat. Does thisand I got my accoun managers, my count rest in large cale organizations? Why do youthink that is the that's kind of become the defacto? Is it I originally thoughtit was because they needed a career path for guys that got out of schoolthat didn't have sales experience. We well put them in an SI role, make themsmile and dial and and burn it up, but I'm curious, if maybe you think,there's another reason why they tried to go down that path, because to me itseems very segmented and a lot of handoff points as you w. If you have anstr who gets a meeting and then you have to hand it off to somebody else toqualify and somebody else to actually you're breaking the chain of thatrelationship, and I think, as more people are focused on that total salesexperience experiences that they're having that gets dangerous and I'm kindof Curi what you think why the specialization happened in the firstplace and how? How do they go back to an iron man approach? Yeah yeah, I mean, I think you just S. aw again,youv got Ta Watch this spectorm kind of go back and forth. So I think we started again as thisgeneralist model I mean you know, you've got these kind of fieled salesreps and they were just doing basically everything and that was you know. A lotof people want to say that was a hundred years ago, but I think it wasmore like twenty o twenty to thirty so, but you saw that true generalist, Maland I think when we started to see the advantage of this specialized model, Ithink we went the other way and I think, sales. It's certainly the text basesales force led out on that right. They just said: Oh, my goodness, we can go, they just specialized everything talk.You know we hired a lot of sales force, fleaders and inside sales and withoutmaming names. Certainly one of the things most of them would tell you isthat they have. They actually identifiedthat one of the things they've gone too far on was, you know, potentiallyspecially created to many silos, and it again this is, may be more based ontheir opinion than data, I'm not sure, but so I think what you're finding nowis just just, of course, CR a natural correction. We we were too far. One waynow we've gone too far. Another way now we're trying to find this generalizedspecialist model is kind of what we've been referring to o. As you know, Imean you still want to have some of that in there, but you've got to find away to kind of have people know about more things around them, so that youcan find this balance. I won't go to the place to say we gotto go back, but we've got to find a way to merge that to two extremes. Together,a little bit yeah a little bit more towards the middle, I mean that againthat an iron mananology man technology enables so much, but at the heart of ityou're still, you still have to find a way to get to that human connectionright. Well, Te ated people yeah the thing the iron man thing. I thinkyou're going to see that come on real interesting because part of the problemwe've run into is you know, crm in...

...general right, a lot of Studi showingthis crm usage is going down. Why? Because it's not really enabling youknow we're going we're not getting the problem. Is You got all thesetechnologies being built on on crm that are giving, but there they're alsosiload that that they're, not in in a lot of cases, they're actuallydecreasing sales productivity, although say their sales accelerators, I they're actually sale decelerators in alot of instances and we probably need to get off the Aros bbut anyway. Ithink you're going to see a big trend more to the individual right. ThinkSports Science, where a sales wrap. You know a Lebron James can go about hiswork week. Has You know he can go into a game and he's got sensors on him andwe're still tracking all his shot, his phelocity and his modeling, but allthat stuff can be fed back to him almost real time. There's a basketballnow that exists, that has data sensors on it. That can real time. Tell you ifyou're yo? U Know Your shot process and form is correct. That's the kind ofplay! That's the IRONMAN right now we're to focused on the systems. It'sthe shiny, OBTOC CRM and sales acceleration technology. We got to getback to the individual and enable them and do it in a way. That's notdisruptive, because, right now I'm telling you go ask how many sales rokeslove you and Crm Big Sha, the Sero. I meani generalize, I'm being a littlefacegious, but I know you're rightous empower the individual rather thanfocus so much on these and we talked about it. Automating emails and it'slike come on. L Ironman, Jarvis Sui supports versus. I don't know you knowthis, it's just I we got to get more iron math and I think you'll see that Ithink it see yeah I've never met and when I was an individual contributorback in the day and when I ran teams and built them, I've never seen a salesrab willingly adopta technology that got in their way right that made itharder for them to sell. I I if I had a dollar for every time I said: Hey, haveyou updated your sales forse forecast? I would be living on a beach somewhereright. So look at a lot of the tools at insideITW. You know, I think we fell into some of that trap. To I mean I won'tsay we're perfect, but we did a big study where we went back to the usersand said you know, is our tool getting in your way and truthfully we had somestrong feedback so w you know. In the last two years we released a fulldifferent suetet tools, it'sa chrome extension that follows the reapon a youknow. I want to say where the the beaming icon or something but God we'vegot to get. We've all got to make a concerted effort, because I know I meanI'm on the road all the time and you talk to reps: It's not just sales force.A lot of these tools are like yeah. It actually disrupts you know rather thansupport, so we we got to find a way to just work. Really if you're amillennial, especially you got to work in my day, I'm not right, I'm not goingfo. You got to work with me. Ro, it don't be interesting. Man Myeah. Wecould talk about this for hours for the gain. I want to be respectfully yourtime I do apprech is so to two questions towards again. We get youknow. At the end of the day, you are as an executive, your target. That meanspeople want to sell to you you're a prospect. Sorry targets, probablylittle to noi don'tha o shoot me up missionimpossible, Sond! No, but there are people out there thatwant to. You know that want to spend time can see if you've got problems. Ican solve so on and so forth and I'm curious, if you're in a very uniqueposition, but I'm very curious when somebody approaches you and the and youdon't know them, there's not a Morminsr whatever. What's the most effective wayto get your attention, what do you find yourself responding to? Is it the voice?Mauns emails, what what seems to work to get your attention and buildcredibility yeah well! This is almost across the board and I've got some gooddata to back it up, but it is just value. Is Value for value. You have to now approach people and cangive them something I mean if you can get. If you can approach me and say Ay,I all introduce you to...

...a really cool company, a podcast guast. All you know. I've got some researchthat I want to share with you and I'll tailor it to your organization. Yougive me value, I don't care the channel. I actually do look at every singleemail that comes in. I got a hundred an sixty two emails yesterday I do look. Every night do go throughevery single email and if there's something and I've had people do it, Isaw your podcast here's a great guest. I think I' recommend to you wow. I listen to that value and I justhighlighted three: you know introduce it or Giv me a podcast, because hershow me some research and I'm not talking about research. I'm talkingabout research, reletant to me right now, Anto to tack, or you know, onTelcom that kind of value. I will give you value back, but it's now.Partnership is the new leadership right. So you know you have got to you want tobe a leader. You want to be a leader that sales you want to Leav your team.You want to be a leader in your organization, you got to find morepartnerships, and so people think I started the PA podcast. You know they're like Oh, you must havewanted to be. You know some sort of thought LAER and I'm like no is justactually trying to sales. You know you know how effective it is to reachout to somebody and say I got ten thousand listeners. A month on mypodcast you want to be on, you want to be on the podcast. Oh by the way wesell technology, that's a kick, but so I I mean, but I gave them value and inturn I deserve to have a com. I've earned the right, I paid the price. So I do believe partnership is the newleadership, excellent axcellent IG last question: We Calle it our accelerationinsight. So if you could think of one thing that you could tell sales ormarketing professionals that you think would make them more effective hittheir targets, you know achieve those big checks, ind those goals. What wouldit be and why yeah man? It's? I mean we use this as our moto right. I've kindof adopted this concept of playmakers- and I say you know- success is just oneplayaway and what that means is it'. You knowwhen you think about sales. I love this concept of you know, I'm a I'm a littlebit of an ex athlete I got. I gotto be careful with that, because what I meanby that, as I'm an x high school athlete, it's not college, it was highschool, but I was good man. Oi got all stat. I got all state bells andwhistles on my walls. I sease a little bit, but it all SOSthis. I got a little bit of a e sports background, a the concept of plays andplaybooks. You know, sales is got to stop shooting from the HIP. You knowwhen you attack an enemy when you attack an opponent, they come at youwith this. You sure is hell, better, have a play and so I' love to see whenpeople run a strategic out reach initiative that thinks about what's mystrategy and my target audience and what I have to offer, how do I givevalue to get it n? What's my cavings and what are my results and whatsystems can I utilize? Then we actually run an outreach player campaign. That'sthe thing that I'm seeing is making the biggest difference in sales when youthink strategically about how you want to get somebody, and you run a play.Rather than shoot from the hip makes all the difference, excellent excellent.I really appreciate the time day if somebody wants to get copies of thelatest studies from inside sales lives. What's the best place to go yeah you want to go to you know.Certainly you know check me oft. You ever want to have a conversation. Yougrot me on linked in it's just Gaye, blarsoi'n Linkin, but it the salesinsider blogand you'll get the exact summar. If you want to go deeper, youcan go to labs dot inside salescom and that's where we highlight our our experiments and some of ourresearch. So between the sales, insider, blog and labs, tot INSIDT Salcom, youfind some good, STUFP, excellent and best way to get I hold of you linked inor email. It sounds like as long as theyre providing value you're open toany channel yeah. You know I'm usually open to chat, but that is the key. If you come at mewith a relevant question or something that's intriguing, I'm always happyhave the conversation and I love the play truthy just hey. I wanted to askyou a question. I wanted to...

...you know you approach me as someoneyou're trying to learn from I'm always happy to teach, but don't think you cantake without Giveng rigso excellent excellenwell again. I can't thank youenough for the time today, it's been great Avinu on the show, appreciate it, my man and any time Iexpect the return visit as well. SOYOU got it. He got all right, everybodythat doesn't with today's episode. If you haven't please check out games,podcast playmaker, I cannot recommend it highly enough. It is a phenomenallisten. It helps me get through the damalyptical every morning. It's fun to listen to check US OUT HEADBTB revizeccom share the episode with friends, Familyes Coworkers. If youlike what your please leave us a review, we do use those reviews to determinewhat guests to bring on for you, but until next time we value primesolutions with you and all nothing, but the greatest success you've been listening to the btobrevenue executive experience to ensure that you never miss an episodesubscribe to the show in Itunes for your favorite podcast player. Thank youso much for listening until next time.

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