The B2B Revenue Executive Experience
The B2B Revenue Executive Experience

Episode · 3 years ago

Flashback - How Customers Decide To Buy w/ Eric Berggren

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

When a company is trying to figure out how to move its product and set itself apart from the competition, the first question in this process should not be, “how are we better than the competition?” But, “what is the customer trying to accomplish and what role can we play in enabling that?”

Eric Berggren a Professor of Marketing at the Kellogg School of Management at Northwestern University and Managing Director of Axios Partners, a management consulting firm focused on driving customer value, innovation, and management, visited our podcast recently and shared his thoughts on how to create unique value for your customers.

 

You're listening to the BDB revenue executive experience, a podcast dedicated to helping executives train their sales and marketing teams to optimize growth. Whether you're looking for techniques and strategies or tools and resources, you've come to the right place. Let's accelerate your growth in three, two, one. Welcome everyone to the B Tob Revenue Executive Experience. I'm your host, Chad Sanderson. Today we're going to be talking about why organizations struggle to understand customer perceptions of value, why this failure creates challenges for growing businesses, especially those focused on becoming truly customer centric and understanding what it means to do that and to deliver that. Tell US tackle the topic. We have with US Eric Bregrand, a professor of marketing from Kellogg School of Management at northwestern and managing director of AXIO's partners management consulting firm focus on driving customer value and innovation and management. So, Eric, want to thank you for taking time to be on the show today. Hey, it's my pleasure. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Excellent. So, as we said kind of before we start recording, we keep this as conversational as possible, but we always like to start when we talk to our guests about you know, if you look back over your career, was there a defining moment or an event that happened that taught you something, that lessons that you keep going back to? Just kind of help us understand what that event or where that thing was and what kind of lessons you took away from it and why. Sure, I started at one of the big prestigious strategy consulting firms and one of my assignments there was to lead a strategy project for a natural gas supplier the industry. Conventional Wisdom was that the business sold a commodity of molecular methane. Is a molecular methane and in fact I can buy natural gas here in Chicago from you. You put it in a pipeline in Oklahoma and I take out somebody else's molecular methane here in Chicago and we all call it even so, if that's not a commodity, I'm not quite sure what is. It seems like the definition of a commodity, which meant I thought this strategy project was going to be about the fastest strategy project ever conducted because if you're the low cart, you really need to be. If it's a truly a commodity business, you've got to be the low cost supplier and you should focus everything around cutting costs. But we challenge that assumption. We figured out what was really valuable to their customers and found several ways to differentiate the offering with value added services, systems and programs wrapped around the molecular methane. And as a result, our client was able to increase their price. Their profit margins improved by forty percent. Wow, and they're customer satisfaction went from the bottom coretile to number two out of a hundred ninety eight,...

...all within eighteen months. Excellent. So I so I was thinking about that. I'm thinking, man, they raised price in the commodity market and their cousin customers liked it, liked them even more for it. So at that point I was I was pretty much hooked. I learned that, you know, really understanding customer value is critical and that there's money to be made in challenging the industry conventional wisdom. Excellent accident. Is that what led you to, you know, go more down an academia path? I mean that it's pretty prestigious university and professorship there some kind of curious. What kind of was that? What pushed you in that direction, or what was it that led you there? I I think lad as probably the rather than me leading myself. It happened naturally. Is More what happened. You know, as a strategy consultant, you know the fundamental questions were what markets and customers should we serve and how are we going to profitably win their business? and to me that all came down to customer value and the thought leaders in customer value were in marketing. So it wasn't necessarily a drive to get into marketing, it just happened that way. So following and exactly exactly, and then in my consulting I've always focused on in the capability within the client to become self sufficient. So in effect I was more of a coach or or teacher and in an implot and more of an applied learning environment, and so I've kind of had that bent forward teaching to begin with. So as all this kind of came together, I was really absolutely quite plattered when the chair of the marketing department at Kellog invited me to join the faculty. It's such a smart and talented group that I constantly learn and enhance my knowledge just from from working with them. Excellent, excellent. So when we were prepping for the show, we settled on a topic of customer value and why organizations struggle to understand it. It's a topic obviously near and Jue to my heart and it's one that's actually getting a lot of play kind of in the social sphere right now. A lot of people talking about well, everybody says you know value, but nobody really tells you how to do it, and so I'm kind of curious. You know, was it that instance with, you know, the methane and the commodity market realization? What was it about that customer value? May You really want to dig into it, to understand it and to help others understand it more effectively? Yeah, I think it was that bad example because, you know, every business, every successful business, needs to sell something what customer at a price where they can make it up money. If they can't, they're going to go out of business. And if that's the fundamental challenge that we have, we got to understand how customers decide to buy, and I think customers decide to buy based on the value they get from one product versus the value they get from another product, and they compare that to...

...the price differential of those two products and whatever nets out to be the best value and use for them, that's that's where they're going to go. So I mean return that they see from when you say value. So let's dive in that just a little bit. It sounds like you're talking about business, the business return of the business. Value. Doesn't the wouldn't the value that somebody sees vary on their on their role inside of an organization and exactly, and that's what makes be to be marketing so interesting, that there are there is value that accrues to the organization and then there are people within that organization who may see only part of that value, or it may even be that they're pretty their war of an influencer in the purchase and they won't personally see any of the value they're they're performing kind of their corporate duty to point the company and in the best direction. Actually trying to understand value. We're going to talk, I think. I think we'll talk something a lot today about understanding value, but it really does have to apply at both the individual and the company level. Excellent and so all right, so let's start with kind of a contextual examples for our listeners so they understand what we're talking about here. So if you can kind of give us an example, puple of how an ideal company would approach this, and then we can dive into some details. Okay, so the customer value leaders do for things really well. They the first one is they choose value, when what I mean by that is they make it a conscious choice. So much of the value that we delivered to customers today is a series of incremental decisions that may have made sense at one point in time, but we just kind of muddle through and it's not really taking that step back and thinking holistically frequently enough that we are making what I would consider a conscious choice in commitment to a winning value proposition. Okay, the second thing. The second thing they do is they're very good at creating value, and by that I mean they think of both their organization and all the partner organizations in their supply chain or in their in their delivery value delivery network as kind of one entity and they figure out if we were all one big organization, what would be the best way to deliver on this promise of value. And now how do I create not only the incentive for the customer to buy, but how do I create the incentives for all of these moving parts, some of which I don't have any direct authority over, to to behave the way I need them to behave in order to fulfill that promise to that end customer? So then the third thing that they're really good at is communicating value. So they if you ask them what's the value proposition for a product, they don't give you a list of seven benefits. They give you they stay clearly two, three, maybe at most three things that are...

...in fact the highest impact sources of value for that for that target customer. And they're good at also offering a reason to believe for that customer that they're going to get that value from your offering. And the last thing they're really good at is converting value, and I use the term convert instead of capture. A lot of people like to talk about capturing value, but that has kind of a zero some game feel to me about it that there's only a certain amount of value there and and it's an adversary or relationship with the customer to figure out who's going to capture it. And I like convert because the term convert because it's not so much as zero sum game. There may be pricing mechanisms that we can do that cost us almost nothing and deliver still more value to the customer. So we're actually pricing in a way that that we are converting value for a getting our fair share of that value, but we're actually growing the pie in the process of managing our pricing. Excellent. Okay. So that the first one the conscious. You may hear a conscious choice. Right, we see there's a lot of talk about that these days. But but the vast majority of organizations, and it's probably what keeps us both employed, have a tendency to think of themselves first. Right, they focus on products, feel good statements. It's all very you know, Ra Rock, who bout? Why? Why do you think, even though the vast majority of, I would say, you know, intelligent, for people that I talked to understand that they need to make a conscious choice to focus on value or make change? Why do you think organizations have a tendency to keep falling back into that Rut of, you know, products and features? It's because we start with the wrong question. Start by asking how we're better than the competition. Then features are the natural response. We're going to list the things where we actually are better than the competition. But the starting question it shouldn't be that. The starting question should be what is the true customer trying to accomplish and what role, then could we play in enabling that? So we got to get the custom the starting question about value to be from the customer. It's perspective right off the Bat. That about challenging right like I be challenging, especially when you've got board members and private equity firms that have invested or executives that are all like you know, they're so focused on the numbers. I think they sometimes do themselves a disservice they can't pull themselves out under stand that a simple change in the perspective of the question can lead to much more impactful results, not only for your own organization but for the customers that you engage with. Right well, in the other the other thing that you mentioned about going to the other extreme, which, instead of having a...

...very specific feature that everybody can kind of get their head around, we kind of default to these vague platitudes like quality and relationship and of course my favorite, my new favorite, is complete and end solutions. So so these are just empty words. They've been overused to the point that they really have lost their ability to convey differentiation. But we end up here because it's expedient. So getting to this deeper level of value requires some time in a lot of worthwhile internal debate. But in a short meeting we can all agree that our product is a high quality solution and that we are reliable partners with our customer in their quest to succeed. So you can quickly agree on some of these vague platitudes, because you know who's going to say, oh well, we want to be a low quality, unreliable supplier and and none of your competitors are going to claim bad yeah, we're cheaper, but we're really unreliable and we're very low quality. So you know, those kind of empty words are expedient for us because we can agree to one, but they're not going to move the needle in terms of our sales and marketing. So so making conscious decisions, being more purposeful and slowing down a little bit. It sounds like we would be advantageous for some of these comings. Taking the time to really do the right type of self analysis, as well as visionary strategic analysis of where you want to go exactly exactly. Excellent. So when we were going back and forth setting this up, you mentioned three levels where companies need to understand and articulate customer value, performance outcomes and worth those one if you break those down for our listeners? Why those areas? Sure the first, though, we've got to remember the value as a relative term. We can't think about the value of our offering without comparing it to something else, some alternative that the customer has. Preferably, we're comparing ourselves to what the customer would perceive to be their next best alternative to us, because that's really the value we need to beat. If we can beat the next best alternative, we're not going to any trouble beating everybody else. So it's the first thing is you can't talk about value on any of the three levels unless you have some alternative in mind that you about what you're measuring at value them. So the most basic level of understanding is our performance versus that next best alternative. But we need to do it across the entire customer to journey and we need to do it from the customers perspective. So most companies are pretty good at understanding the customer journey for the actual product. Using the actual product. They've gotten pretty good or better at understanding kind of the buying journey, but they s still tend to not have as good and understanding about all the other aspects of...

...the total customer journey. And we also still have this bias where we end up not really thinking from the customers perspective. We still phrase the questions and gather the data in a way that it still feels like it's it's more about us. So most companies are at this first level and they're doing kind of US spotty job. Some are doing pretty well and some areas, but it's really hard to be nail on this level on on all dimensions. So then the second one is okay, so there's some performance difference, so we're better at something. The question is, so what? How does that difference affect the customer? So we need to understand what's the outcome for the customer of any of these performance differences, because that's really what they're focused on. They're trying to accomplish some some task or job or achieve some objective. To what degree are we either helping them achieve that objective or hindering them in achieving that objective relative to the other ways that they could be pursuing that objective? And the third level is that not all, not all outcomes are equally important. So we need to assess preferably in monetary terms. You know what each meaningful outcome is worth to the customer and while we can't put everything into monetary terms, there's always going to be some intangibles. We want to strive for monetary terms because it it basically is the easiest measuring stick that we can use in the selling situation. So if we can get it there, that's that's ideal. And what we found is that quantifying value in monetary terms is challenging for for everybody. So otherwise everybody would have already done right if it were easy. So exactly, exactly so. But we found is that when you get that right, it really moves the needle. It affects it motivates the customer and it affects your sales win rates, can shorten your sales cycle. Things like that. Excellent. So going back to that performance when we talk about traditional market research, you mentioned personas and journeys and things like that. I'm curious, you know, I've seen a lot of companies spend significant amounts of money on efforts to map customer buyer journeys, put together their types of personas or empathy maps, things like that. But it is, as you said, it is very hard for them to not do it from a perspective that doesn't include them first. So if somebody were approaching that kind of stuffer, conducting that, what would you say would be the best approaches for doing that so that you could get through performance outcome into worth? Yes, we use two different approaches, one for each level. So in terms of understanding outcomes,...

...we prefer to use a more anthropological or ethnographically inspired approach. So, you know, if you're trying to understand about the culture of the people on an island in the South Pacific, you don't give them the survey, you go out and you live with them and you become part of the culture and that's how you become that's how we would like to try to become our customer. Now, unfortunately, we can't just go live with our customer for a year and internalize everything. That's not going to be practical. So we have what we call a day in the life of the customer analysis where we go on site to the customer with a cross functional team from the client to observe and ask questions of a cross functional team of the customer, the clients customer, to help us better understand what are the objectives in the priorities that they have with the customer has and the most important objectives, we want them to show us how they're trying to accomplish them now and it's not until we understand how they're trying to accomplish it. What works well, it doesn't work well? What are the consequences when it doesn't work well? Then, and only then, do we ask, well, how does our offering help or might not necessarily help, achieve those objectives? So, as you can see, this kind of question, he goes back to our original conversation about well, to succeed with customer value you got to start with the right question, and the right questions all focus on understanding the customer and what they're trying to achieve. Are At the question of how we're performing is the last thing we ask, rather than the first thing we ask right right for understanding the worth. I use my co colleague, Professor James Anderson as cuse his customer value modeling approach. He describes it in his book value merchants and he's also, I had, in a couple HP articles that you can read about as well. But here we build a model to estimate the bottom line impact of those performance differences that are offering creates. Now this is different from a total cost of ownership study because in this approach we only focus on the points of difference. So where our product performs equally to the next best alternative, we put all that data aside and don't bother gathering any of it. Because the knock the not what we found with total cost of ownership is that you've got to get the data for any impact that your product could have anywhere in the organization, and that list gets really, really long and it invites the customers to say,...

...you know, I don't have the time, I'm not going to participate in this, I don't have the time. You're asking for way too much data. So this customer value modeling approach, by just focusing it in on a couple of key points of difference. It allows us to gain the customers, be more likely to gain the customers participation and not waste everyone's time gathering data that we know if the performance is equal, we know the differential value is, by definition, going to be zero. So it's really both of these approaches are a process of joint discovery with the customer. So we approach them in a way that we're saying we don't know what the answers are, we've got a way to understand what you're trying to do and what the economic impact of getting better at doing that might be, and we want to explore you know what those possibilities are. They maybe include things that you never thought we could do for you, and that's that. You know, that's our ideal outcome from from these kind of efforts uncover something unexpected. So it sets the stage for innovation based on the exact real data, real day. And I mean I spent the last ten years of my career trying to explain to executives the difference between ethnographic and anthropological research. I hope you've cracked it better than I ever did. But once you get them past that point once, once they understand that they need to do this research. It really probably should be done by an outside party that is unbiased and doesn't bring, you know, those perspectives that can color create the rose colored glasses types of stuff. Once you get them through that point and they get that data, then what's the next step? How do you advise them to take it back into the organization and make it actionable? Well, there the quick hit is to take your most differentiate product first. Just focus on your most differentiated products and get this level of understanding, because then you could use that information to fine tune your segmentation and targeting, because you now know better what drives value for the different types of customers. You can use that to focus your communication on what will be the most motivating to the customer and improve your marketing sales effectiveness that way. And lastly, knowing, knowing what it's worth, you may be able to raise price or at least stand firmer in reducing some of the unmanaged discounting that's going on. Longer term, you can feed these insights into new product development, customer experience and customer success efforts to help them prioritize what they're doing. Excellent when we work with customers. We talked a lot about the difference between a customer persona and a buyer persona. Right the person, because we focus, I was, on sales and marketing organizations, but when you're focused on a buyer, marketing has a tendency to provide all these customer personas right to the sales organization like Hey, this is how you should approach this person, this is what they care about. But it be to be especially...

...large scale enterprise. The person who actually signs a check probably the last person that ever is going to use the products or solution. Right, they have to grant green light it somewhere. So I'm curious how you know you would work with or enable or focus on that. That sales conundrum of okay, you went out, you did the research. We know you know how to do the performance outcomes and worth. We know what that is for our organization. How do you then funnel that and fuel that into a sales organization so they're better prepared in their own efforts to uncover their customers perceptions of value? Yeah, so the tried say a couple things. One is to try to drive that alignment in the organization. These both of these techniques are led jointly by sales and marketing. So the customer value my mettling as a joint effort, the dialogs or a joint effort and by going to those two higher levels of understanding of value, it drives sales and marketing to get on the same page in a much more specific way than they ever have before. So it it forces the organization to agree on what that winning value is for each of those personas and instead of settling for some of these vague, vague platitudes or numbing them in the feature. And you know and if you don't, and it's it's it's got to be led by the leaders of the sales and Marketing Organization. If they aren't pushing this and it comes down to how they spend their time. I mean if I'm trying to understand what's important to chief marketing officer or chief for Avenue Officer, I don't ask you know, what's important to them, I ask them how they're spending their time, because that's the best clue to me about what they really think is important. So if they're not spending their time on making sure that this integration is happening, your destined to have a flavor of the month. You're just not gonna do it well. You'RE gonna not see the results without that sales and marketing integration. Is that a challengeable when you go and work with a new organization or people come to you and ask you for your help, is that one of the first places you look? We're one of the things. It's on your know, your checklist to make sure that not only are sales and marketing involved, but that the leadership is completely behind it. And if they're not, do you have ways that you go about perhaps showing them the value of the initiative itself? Yes, so the the that's the single you've had. Chad. You've hit on the single biggest reason why these kind of efforts fail right the senior management. Of Senior Management's not on board, and it really I single out sales and marketing, but it really is a cross functional requirement for these things...

...to succeed, because a kind of new sources of value that you're going to come up with, they're they're not going to be within the control of sales and marketing to make happen. So and that's why we bring across functional team when we do these. This kind of analysis, because we're trying to create kind of a ground swell, a bottoms up approach to generating some enthusiasm. Now, the way that we try to generate the enthusiasm from the leadership team up front is the very same kind of examples that we try to practice what we preach with our clients. So so we build a business case, we try we describe here's the steps that you need to go through, here's the resources that are required, here's what other companies have experienced when they've done the same thing and they've really committed to it, including the leadership, and we can also share examples of feeling the leaderships not behind it. Now we should just walk away because we sure we'd like to have the fees, but it's just not going to get you the results that you want. Yeah, which ends up doing nothing but wasting their time, damaging your brand, wasting your time. You know. I mean, it's just it becomes a bit of a challenge. I I've seen a lot of transform and I've kind of been going on and round likenked in about this lately. Transformation becomes kind of the buzz word and everybody wants it, but nobody I'd say executives have a Tennessee to struggle with the fact that that means they have to be on board and they have to ask themselves different questions and take different perspectives. They have to support it, break down those silos that we so often see in those large enter prizes. And if they're not behind it, I've just gotten a point where it's like when you guys are ready, you know where I'm at, but but I'm not. I don't want to waste your time. I don't want to impact your business in a negative way or, quite frankly, my own brand. If you guys are going to be completely on board with it. It's a very challenging and I would say, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's a defining moment in the relationship that you have with your customers. Is that making sure that everybody's in alignment? Yeah, you that's a great, great approach to ad and and you're absolutely right. So all right, let's talk about let's say we've talked about all of the the kind of the theory of it. We started with the Chemical Company. Let's talk about if you give us another example of a customer that had a problem that you're a that we're allowed to talk about publicly, but because we had a problem. kind of what were those problems? How do you engage in work through this with them, and what were the were the net results? kind of walk us through that, that journey of that engagement. Sure, sure, we had a medical device and medical supply company that was finding that their products were commoditized. Some of them were in fact commoditized by themselves. They had light, they had licensed out the underlying technology to a competitor, figuring that that would they get, you know, a licensing fee on all of the sales in the market by doing that. But now they had a pretty formidable competitor.

So we started one offering at a time and I think that's kind of this is. This is more of a bottoms up kind of approach. I mean you'll you'll hear, you'll see a lot of approaches where it's analyze everything in the company first and then start carving it up from there. We take the opposite approach. We want to create a win quickly, so we take the most differentiated offerings. Our clients are always tempted to say, Hey, this is a product we haven't been able to sell or we we have to discount heavily to sell and can you, can you work your magic on this? And I said, we have we have no magic. So the answer that is no. If it, my hunch is it's not differentiated. And going through this us as we made come up with some new ways of differentiating it, and I'll give you a quick example of that. Where we had, well, they had contact plates, which are, I don't if you remember from high school science, little peatree dishes, but conquered contact plates are basically the same things that they have a medium on a already installed on. It's that when you place like a sample of blood onto the plate, it starts to react and it can tell you whether you have a certain virus or you have a certain bacteria. But no matter who who offers the contact plate, it has to react the same way. Otherwise we're going to get all sorts of funky results. Right. So they had figured it was a commodity business. We're going to cut costs. They created a new way of manufacturing these plates and the lids, but the lids stuck now, so you had to pinch them and turn them a little bit to open them up. And they thought, well, it's ten percent cheaper to manufacture, so we'll share the savings with the customer. will cut price by five percent. We went out, we've to industrial labs and found out that they stack these contact plates ten, twenty high and they get knocked over all the time. The lids come off in the experiments ruined. So it turned out that the consequences were the outcome of that, of those falls of the contact plates amounted to seventy five percent of the cost of the plate itself. Because these were like the Eli lillies of the world. They had to file all sorts of reports. I had to Redo the test, but then they had to file all sorts of incident reports in the laboratory and have things cleaned and changed in, all this stuff. So it was really, really expensive. So instead of lowering price by five percent, we actually raised it by twenty percent and they still met all their revenue, all their sales targets. So we took that. And then we went to another instrument that they instrument, the test of blood, and they had were using the vague well, we're easier to use argument and we did this analysis for that and we found that ease of use in this case meant that a junior technician could run the instrument so it didn't have...

...to be in the microbiology lab, which is a very specialized lab in the hospital. It could just be put in the general lab which runs and a lot of hospitals that runs twenty four hours a day, but micro only runs one or two shifts a day. And then you could get the result to the doctor faster, which could get the right medicine to the patient faster. And there was just tremendous amount of value for getting that instrument out of the micro lab. But that's what if you just left it it easy to use, it didn't really mean anything to anybody. But if you say, well, look, it's easier to use, so now you can move it over there, you know, cheaper person running it and you can run at twenty four seven and lower your length of stay for your patients, and all of a sudden is just dollar bells. Yeah, that sides everywe right. So we just started picking these off and we been through twenty plus their offerings and they get dramatic results. That that's excellent. It's amazing to me, like said, having spent the last ten years working with experience digital experience specifically, but it's always amazing to me how that observational research and and really paying attention from an outside view of what's going on being, you know, purposeful and and Temple, how that uncovers things that many people just don't seem to understand and opportunities that the business can definitely benefit from. So I'm glad to see that it's producing producing results for your customers as well. So let's change direction a little bit here. I ask all of our guests kind of two standard questions towards the end of each interview. In the first one is, you know, you're an executive at actually, as you obviously you know, have people coming after you that want to get into the university as well. So we like to help our audience understand, you know, how to be how to effectively capture someone's attention if you were prospecting to them, were wanted to get in front of them. So, from your perspective, what's the most effective way to capture your attention or start to build credibility so that a conversation can ensue? Well, you probably won't be surprised by this and on our conversation so far, but you gotta length. You gotta linked it to one of my top party are concerns. There are are a lot of things that I could be doing right now more efficiently that would save me time and save me money, but that's not my primary objective right now. There's no way I'm going to save my way to prosperity. I have to I have to also view the offering there for is kind of a strategic purchase. If it's not really very strategic to me. It's really more efficient use of my time to just repurchase what I've already been doing and I have to learn something new. So I'm leaving tons of positive roy products on the table because I just don't have the time to implement them and it's just not the major focus for me. So if you've linked it to that priority or concern that's really driving my behavior right now in my where my mind is right now, then the...

...main thing is I need some kind of proof that the performance is superior and that I could reliably expect to experience that from excellent. Okay, and so last question. We call it our acceleration insight. So if there was one thing that you could tell sales marketing, your professional services people one piece of advice that you think would help them be better, be more effective, beat their targets? What would it be? In why? Don't cutch it? Don't cut short the understanding and communicating customer value. All the forces in business tend to push you the other way, to be quick and to be superficial about it, but you have to resist that temptation because when you understand and demonstrate superior value, you just get dramatic and immediate results from it. Excellent, excellent. Will Perfect Erica, for listeners interest and talking more about the topics we've covered today, what's the best way to get in contact with you? But they can connect with me on linked in, or they could go to the axis partners website and see what we do there and contact me through there. That's www dot CEOS a xios partners, paartnrs inkcom. That's all. One word point joation. All right, excellent. I can't thank you enough for your time today. It's been great having it on the show. You're welcome customer. As you can tell, I love talking about customer value. I have a feeling we probably could go on for hours, no doubt, no doubt. All right, everyone, that does it for this episode. Please check us out at be to be REV exaccom, share the episode with friends, family, Co workers and if you like what you're here please do us a favorite writer review on itunes. Keeps the content fresh and we actually use that to folcus in what types of guests to bring on the show. So, until next time, we wish you all nothing but the best and the greatest success. You've been listening to the BB revenue executive experience. To ensure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Itunes or your favorite podcast player. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time,.

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